Outlaw M200 pro/cons or other suggestions

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Michael Marklund, Feb 3, 2003.

  1. Michael Marklund

    Michael Marklund Stunt Coordinator

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    Okay, new dvd is in place and the conversion to separates starts w/ new amps for me. Room is 22x16 w/ 9' ceilings. Mains are PSB Image 6T, rears are Image 3LR, center is 9C, surrounds are Image 10S. Am shooting for around 200w/ch. Would prefer serparate amps as opposed to one 7 channel amp. Main reason is cost of buying on big 7 channel amp as opposed to a few lesser channel amps spread out over 6ish months. I also like the idea of more separate/monoblock designs compared to all in one. Finished amp budget is probably $3000 max after all are bought, but not 3k all at once (and I don't want to wait a year to get there.)

    With that said, what about Outlaw's new M200 monoblocks? Pros and cons/questions I have:
    -Really small for 200 watts...so?
    -What about this class "G"...the torroid is good for up to 80 watts then goes into "G". Can class G handle the continuous high output of close to reference levels for a whole movie?
    -at 18 pounds it sounds light yet if this was a five channel amp, it'd weigh 90pds...not a light weight.
    -has the HT community decided on Outlaw yet...products with hiss, orders take forever,etc.
    -at $300 per unit these are cheap (too cheap?) and I could add one a month after buying 3 right out of the gate.

    First other choice is B&K Ref 200.3 then 2 additional 200.2's. This would take twice as long to get the front 3 channels, but I consider B&K excellent for my mid-fi system. Others I've looked at: Adcom, Anthem, Rotel,etc. A used 993 Rotel would be great if someone would actually sell one on the used market. Seems people don't want to part w/ them.

    Anyways, any opinions would be greatly appreciated.
    Michael
     
  2. Patrick Sun

    Patrick Sun Moderator
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    With their 30 day money back guarentee, I don't think you can go wrong checking out these amps. (Well, I guess shipping them back might cost a few bucks).
     
  3. Ricky T

    Ricky T Supporting Actor

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    Bryston amps are all monoblock designs with 150 watt modules (with one power cord per chassis). You can get them used for about $350-400 per channel: 3b-st 120x3, 5b-st 120x4, 8b-st 120x4, 9b-st 120x5. The Lexicon NT series amps are rebadged Bryston-ST amps, and might even be a little cheaper. 7 Bryston amp channels can be attained on your $3k budget.

    The Denon poa8200 120x2, poa8300 120x3 are also monoblock designs with one power transformer per channel. Reputable jeffssoundvalues.com has a poa8200 for $395.
     
  4. Michael Marklund

    Michael Marklund Stunt Coordinator

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    Ricky,

    I've looked at the Brystons (used) before. I believe their build quality is absolutely top notch. What concerns me w/ Bryston is their output. 120w/ch isn't that much. My Denon 3802 does 110w/ch. A 10w bump may not be worth the price. I know separate amps will make an improvement over the 3802's amps, but will switching to separate amps w/ very little gain in output be noticable?? Also, my speakers are rated at 6ohms. Personally, I think the Denon strains at higher volume pumping out the 110w/ch. If I can get some feedback as to what I might expect using the Brystons, I wouldn't mind owning them. Like I said, their build quality is excellent.

    Thanks,
    Michael
     
  5. Ricky T

    Ricky T Supporting Actor

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    You must be kinding comparing Bryston mfg specs vs Denon's mfg specs...right? [​IMG] If you look at lab results over 20-20k and 8 ohms, I believe the Bryston modules output about 150 wpc and the Denon 3802 about 70 wpc, all 7 channels driven. And if you want to factor power into lower impedances like 6 ohms, 4 ohms, 3 ohms...the Bryston will smoke the Denon.

    I'd take 7 Bryston amp channels over the Denon 5800/5803 every day of the week and thrice on Sundays....
     
  6. Ricky T

    Ricky T Supporting Actor

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  7. Guy Usher

    Guy Usher Supporting Actor

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    Class G operation involves changing the power supply voltage from a lower level to a higher level when larger output swings are required. There have been several ways to do this. The simplest involves a single class AB output stage that is connected to two power supply rails by a diode, or a transistor switch. The design is such that for most musical program material, the output stage is connected to the lower supply voltage, and automatically switches to the higher rails for large signal peaks [ thus the nickname rail-switcher]. Another approach uses two class AB output stages, each connected to a different power supply voltage, with the magnitude of the input signal determining the signal path. Using two power supplies improves efficiency enough to allow significantly more power for a given size and weight. Class G is becoming common for pro audio designs. [Historical note: Hitachi is credited with pioneering class G designs with their 1977 Dynaharmony HMA 8300 power amplifier
    No brainer to me, 3 bucks for a 300w mono amp (4ohm) I am thinking serious about putting one on my cs2039 and with its auto turn on modes, I am fired up. . .
     
  8. Michael Marklund

    Michael Marklund Stunt Coordinator

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    Ricky/Guy,

    The text from Guy is the text from the link from Ricky. This is also semi covered on Outlaw's website/hideout. What concerns me about class G is the reference to switching for peak outputs. Most of the time my listening is at releatively sane levels when the wife and kids are home. When they are not, I play the theater loud. The Denon's volume goes from -60 to +10. Yesterday, watching Blackhawk Down, I had the volume at -5. This is pretty high up the volume level. I watched the entire movie at this level and I couldn't hear the phone ring right next to me. If class G shifts to "the other rail" or whatever for PEAKS, can it handle that output sustained?? I like the idea of these amps and the price is killer. I'm just nervous/concerned about how much one can expect from such a "cheap" monoblock.

    Ricky,
    Yes, to some extent I was comparing mfg's specs between amp output for Denon/Bryston. I agree w/ you though. Bryston is famous for being very conservative w/ specs. Their amps almost always bench test at higher output than specs. Whereas most AVRs test lower w/ all channels driven. Just wondering if the sound/output would be a noticeable enough difference. The other hitch to Bryston is they only make one amp w/ an odd # of channels (9BX w/ 5 channels). This forces me into a bigger than preferred initial expense. (minimum $2k used) for first amp. A little steeper than what I was shooting for. (Although in my final budget total.) If it was the "ultimate" best choice, I could probably wait a few months and get it, I'd just rather start w/ a 2 or 3 channel amp and get it sooner. I really hate this upgrade bug. Soon as I get some money, I want a new component NOW! Can't stand waiting for 3 months to save up for a smarter choice. Maybe just need someone to talk me into it.[​IMG]

    Thanks,
    Michael
     
  9. Guy Usher

    Guy Usher Supporting Actor

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    Did someone say it switched at 80w thats a ton. Outlaw says you have 30 days. . . . I noticed a new review on the Outlaw site today where this guy bought 7 of these and says they dont even get warm. . . I will lay my hands on mine. . .
     
  10. Michael Marklund

    Michael Marklund Stunt Coordinator

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    Hmph! Let me throw some more question out:

    -Do I really need 200wpc?...Would 150wpc w/ a separate amp make me happy?
    -Does a 5+2 or 7 channel amp make more sense than a 3+2+2 or a 3+4?? I know this gets into the bigger torroid suppling peak output for mains when needed vs. quality of separate monoblock (in one case) design discussion. But does one style make for a better amp?
    -How important are XLR (balanced) connections?...down the road would probably be looking at a dedicated pre/pro. Should XLR connections, or lack thereof, matter?
    -New Parasound, B&K, Rotel,etc vs. used Bryston, Aragon,etc...Audible difference? Worth it?

    Sorry if some of the questions are basic. After doing a tom of looking into dvd players then pulling the trigger, I'm starting w/ amps.

    Thanks for the help,
    Michael
     
  11. Michael Marklund

    Michael Marklund Stunt Coordinator

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  12. Ricky T

    Ricky T Supporting Actor

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    I'm not sure how the amp getting warm or staying cool is correlated with sound quality. Per the Amp Classes link, amps biased in pure class A will run hot because Class A is less efficient (ie, Aragon, Parasound, Classe, etc).

    Some amps like the Citation 7.1 and 5.1 run cool.

    There are SO many good used amps out there, I won't even beging to start. The classified forum here has plenty of them each week.
     
  13. Michael Marklund

    Michael Marklund Stunt Coordinator

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    FWIW,

    My local b&m sells the NHT A1s. Retail $400ea...sell for $330ea. Payday is Friday, so I'm going to order 3 of them.
    Hopefully they'll work well.

    Regards,
    Michael
     
  14. Ricky T

    Ricky T Supporting Actor

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    Would you have a return policy with your local B&M? I would try two first and order the 3rd if you like them.
     
  15. Bill Polley

    Bill Polley Second Unit

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    So you are going to pay $990 plus tax for 3 NHT A-1 amps, which have a 1 yr warranty, instead of $849 plus shipping for three Outlaw M-200s, which come with a 5 year warranty. The only difference is the balanced input on the NHTs.
     
  16. Michael Marklund

    Michael Marklund Stunt Coordinator

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    Bill,

    Actually, yes. The Outlaws have $75 shipping. Tax here in AZ is 8.1% ($80). Comes to $1070 or $925. That's $145 difference or less than $50 per amp for balanced. To me, that's acceptable. I will have the balanced connectors for future pre/pro upgrade. Plus, I like dealing w/ local b&m if feasible. If something goes wrong, I drive 5 minutes to the store and don't have to pay/wait for shipping back to Outlaw. Like I said, FOR ME, this is an acceptable expense.YMMV.

    Regards,
    Michael
     
  17. jeff_coil

    jeff_coil Stunt Coordinator

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    Michael,
    I'll be interested in your review! I am in the same situation right now and will be using my 3803 as a pre/pro
     
  18. JohnSJ

    JohnSJ Auditioning

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    Michael,

    If I'm not mistaken living in Arizona you are not subject to sales tax on the Outlaw gear. Of course if balanced connections are what your after the NHT's sound like a really good deal.

    John
     
  19. Michael Marklund

    Michael Marklund Stunt Coordinator

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    John,

    You're right. I do not have to pay tax from Outlaw. However, shipping for 3 M200s is $75.00. (that's ground, air is $165.) That was what I added into the cost of the Outlaw. Anyways, the cost is close enough that I don't mind the extra for the NHT.

    Am really looking forward to hearing the difference w/ separate amps. Finally my HT is getting close to what I wanted it to be. The sub upgrade was a big difference and so was the dvd upgrade. Let's hope the amps are too.

    Thanks,
    Michael
     
  20. jeff_coil

    jeff_coil Stunt Coordinator

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    Michael, Did you pull the trigger on the amps yet? Just curious.
     

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