Outlaw ICBM unnecessary???

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Kieran Coghlan, Oct 12, 2001.

  1. Kieran Coghlan

    Kieran Coghlan Second Unit

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 1998
    Messages:
    262
    Likes Received:
    0
    Sony's new dvd player, the DVP-NS900P has built in bass management for SACD playback. Granted, it won't be as flexible as the ICBM, but hey! At least it's got it!
    ------------------
    -Kieran
    My HT Page
     
  2. Bhagi Katbamna

    Bhagi Katbamna Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2000
    Messages:
    870
    Likes Received:
    0
     
  3. Lou Sytsma

    Lou Sytsma Producer

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 1998
    Messages:
    5,851
    Likes Received:
    351
    Real Name:
    Lou Sytsma
    For players supporting DVD-A or SACD down the road bass mgmt devices such as the ICBM will no longer be necessary.
    However the ICBM can be used for all bass mgmt needs if set up acccordingly.
    ------------------
    Every man is my superior, in that I may learn from him.
    MyHTSetup
     
  4. Doug_B

    Doug_B Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2001
    Messages:
    1,081
    Likes Received:
    0
     
  5. Drew Eckhardt

    Drew Eckhardt Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    May 10, 2001
    Messages:
    246
    Likes Received:
    0
    Unless all your speakers are equidistant from you, using the ICBM between preamp and power amps would cause you to loose time alignment between the main speakers and sub woofer.
     
  6. Kevin C Brown

    Kevin C Brown Producer

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2000
    Messages:
    5,712
    Likes Received:
    0
    Drew- That's a good point actually. A receiver/pre-pro would take that into account.
    The ICBM can't.
    But it could have been included in the design because you can do delays in analog circuitry.
    This is actually a good question for Outlaw!
    This seems like a fair sized oversight, the more I think about it.
    Maybe time aligment not so critical for low freq sounds? (I'm not even believing that as I write it!)
    ------------------
     
  7. Lou Sytsma

    Lou Sytsma Producer

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 1998
    Messages:
    5,851
    Likes Received:
    351
    Real Name:
    Lou Sytsma
    Setting delays is discussed in the Outlaw manual.
    Here is the link:
    http://pdf.outlawaudio.com/outlaw/docs/icbm_manual.pdf
    Page 8, step 10 discusses delays.
    Basically your delay settings for DD, DTS will still be valid but DVD-A and SACD do not support delay settings.
    ------------------
    Every man is my superior, in that I may learn from him.
    MyHTSetup
     
  8. RAF

    RAF Lead Actor

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 1997
    Messages:
    7,061
    Likes Received:
    0
    The ICBM actually can handle 6.1 sources since it has input/output for a center surround channel. And I'm also not sure if timing issues with the Subwoofer play a significant role.
    The only "problem" that I see for future expandability is if and when I add multi-channel SACD to my arsenal. I currently have DVD-Audio (connected to my ICBM via my RP-91) and two channel SACD (connected directly to my Denon 5700's analog inputs from my Sony 9000ES DVD player) so there is no problem. But if I ever add a Multichannel SACD player I would need a second set of multichannel inputs on the ICBM (or, more likely) a second ICBM. And it doesn't really help to place the ICBM between the pre-amp and amp stages of my receiver because most receivers, if not all, still only have one set of multichannel processor inputs.
    Sidebar: Does anyone know if you could use Y-connectors to input more than one multi-channel source to an ICBM? This would preclude the need for multiple ICBM's, but would it introduce other problems?
    Incidentally, my initial impression of the ICBM is that it is a quality product and does what it advertises at a very competetive price.
    ------------------
    RAF
    [Demented Video Dude since 1997]
    [Computer Maven since 1956]
    ["PITA" since 1942]
    My HT (latest update 02/05/01)
     
  9. Kevin C Brown

    Kevin C Brown Producer

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2000
    Messages:
    5,712
    Likes Received:
    0
    Lou and Robert- I think you might not be understanding the issue. [​IMG]
    I have front mains that are 2 meters away
    I have a front center 1 m away.
    My sub is in the corner 3 m away.
    If I set all the delays *as normal* in my pre/pro, the ICBM *cannot* compensate for the fact that I only have 1 sub that is 3 m away, which is a different distance than the fronts and the center channel. (Same thing for surrounds.)
    The bass frequencies sent to the sub will be out of time alignment with the rest of the frequencies still being sent to the mains and the front speakers (and the surrounds too).
    That is not good. Same reason why speaker companies like Dunlavy, Thiel, and Vandersteen are so hyper about "time and phase correct" loudspeaker design. (WSR is big on this.)
    But like I said, Outlaw could have included analog delay circuitry in it, and even accommodated this aspect of its use. (At a higher price, probably.)
    And if you do the other case they suggest, setting the distances all the same in the pre/pro, than everything is whacked in terms of "proper" imaging for DD/DTS too!
    Bottom line is: if you believe that "time and phase" correct speaker imaging is important, the ICBM doesn't and can't support that.
    ------------------
     
  10. Kevin C Brown

    Kevin C Brown Producer

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2000
    Messages:
    5,712
    Likes Received:
    0
    Robert- The TA-P9000ES by Sony will accommodate multiple 5.1 analog inputs. For a price of course!
    ------------------
     
  11. Lou Sytsma

    Lou Sytsma Producer

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 1998
    Messages:
    5,851
    Likes Received:
    351
    Real Name:
    Lou Sytsma
    Kevin I was just passing along the info from Outlaw.
    I understand the situation. It's up to us to decide if the delay is a make or break issue.
    For me it's not.
    ------------------
    Every man is my superior, in that I may learn from him.
    MyHTSetup
    [Edited last by Lou Sytsma on October 13, 2001 at 03:07 PM]
     
  12. BobL

    BobL Agent

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2001
    Messages:
    32
    Likes Received:
    0
    Many DVD-A players have the timing and db level adjustments in them. Some have a fixed crossover as well(usually just a small or large setting for the speakers). But, none let you mix and match various crossover points for the different capability speakers like the ICBM does.
     
  13. RAF

    RAF Lead Actor

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 1997
    Messages:
    7,061
    Likes Received:
    0
    Kevin,
    I understand the concept of time delay issues. My point was that I don't think it's that big a deal. Besides, if you place the ICBM prior to the pre/pro then that component (the pre/pro) will not be affected in its ability, if any, to adjust the timings.
    As you noted, if the ICBM is placed between the pre/pro and the amplification stages, then that's another matter entirely. The more I think about it, however, the more I'm inclined to leave my ICBM before the pre/pro since its main role for me will be to provide bass management for the DVD-Audio stream. My receiver does just fine with bass management in the digital domain and in pass through two channel analog from 2 channel SACD.
    Also, on the question of WSR and timing - I sat in their excellent Home Theatre a few weeks ago and I'm not as obsessive about the timing as they are. I understand the theory but IMHO it doesn't always translate into real world effects that matter to me. A bigger issue with the WSR theater, to me, was their choice to use a center speaker without the same full range as their excellent tower speakers (at about $12K per tower they better be excellent!) For normal cinema viewing they use a speaker array with only 4 of the 6 transducers found in the tower (I think that's the speaker count) and I found this to make the center channel - a most important channel in movie watching - a little less prominent than all the other speakers.
    Of course, Gary Reber is basically a two channel afficianado, so I think this carries over a bit. The two channel stuff he played for us was amazingly clear! Interestingly, he does have a full tower for use as a center channel when listening to 5.1 audio sources that he puts in place in front of the screen for that application. I didn't get a chance to listen to that configuration but I imagine it must be spectacular.
     
  14. Chuck Kent

    Chuck Kent Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    May 29, 1999
    Messages:
    983
    Likes Received:
    0
    Is the ICBM unnecessary? IMO, at this point in time, no. I believe it fills a void that has been needed ever since Dolby Digital became common.
    I know of no player that offers anything close to what the ICBM can do (multiple crossover points for different speakers.) To my knowledge, players that do have some form of bass management offer only high crossover points (100 or 120 Hz.) IMO, barely better than none at all. I believe the ICBM is a big leap forward.
    My 2 cents on the time alignment is that most of our listening rooms have enough bass "difficulties" that bass frequency response peaks and valleys easily overshadow bass management time alignment differences. IOW, I don't believe that I could ever tell if I had a bass time alignment problem.
    ------------------
     
  15. Kevin C Brown

    Kevin C Brown Producer

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2000
    Messages:
    5,712
    Likes Received:
    0
    Robert- I was thinking about this. Actually, what the ICBM does, isn't that different from the "old way" of hooking up a sub.
    Run speaker level wires for both L + R channels to the sub, let the sub crossover split the signal (the sub part to the sub, and the remainder speaker part back out of the sub to the L + R speakers).
    And like the manual said, if you rely on the ICBM for the bass management for DVD-A and SACD, then there can't be any delays built in anyway.
    So in the end, what you get with it is probably worth it!
    As far as whether the ICBM is unnecessary or not, that will depend on the particular DVD-A/SACD player it is used with, and whether the player has any bass management facilities built in. But the ICBM is pretty flexible.
    ------------------
     

Share This Page