Outlaw Falling Out Of Favor? (1 Viewer)

[Marshall Sander]

I take this to mean that RAF believes some people think he is an "unwitting pawn for Outlaw" (maybe he has been accused of that by someone). He was just poking fun at himself. It's no secret RAF likes the Outlaw 950 and is vocal about it. Everyone should relax.

On the subject -- I am very new to home theater and have only recently learned about many of the companies discussed on this forum -- Outlaw, Rotel, Anthem, Sherbourn, etc. Thus, I have no history with any of these companies to make me respect one more than the other. My impression of these companies has been formed in the last months from what I have read here and elsewhere.

I made a reservation for the 950 in late May. My new home won't be ready until September, so I am in no hurry to buy any product. The 950 and 1066 are within my price range and, for the most part, I belive that I will get better sound from a separate processor and amplifier. Even so, the problems and delays associated with the 950 triggered something in my gut that tells me to stay away. I will wait and see what happens in the coming months, but I will continue to explore other options -- including a top shelf receiver instead of either the 950 or the 1066.

 

[chung_sotheby]

If you look and read my message carefully, I do not in any way "take RAF to task." I am simply stating my opinion on what I have seen happen in too many of these forums. The only time I place an opinion on RAF is in the last section, and my opinion is solely based on what the meaning of his last sentence is. If I have understood his last sentence wrong, then my apologies, but if I did not, then I am stating my opinion on something that RAF has said, I am in no way "taking him to task" or attacking him, I am only looking for an explanation and stating what my initial opinion of this comment was. And the reason why I asked him to comment on his last sentence is that I think that it would be beneficial to all readers of this post.

 

[Jack Briggs]

Sorry for misunderstanding you, Chung. My apologies.

 

[Bob-N]

Chung, the "unwitting pawn" comment came about as RAF was one of the "lucky" 950 beta testers. As being such, some posters thought that RAF was unusually enthusiastic about the 950 after he (and the other beta testers) were released from the NDA's. RAF was indirectly (maybe directly too) accused of the old "payola" situation in his enthusiastic review of the beta 950.

As is human nature, as problems came up, RAF and other vocal beta testers were put through the ringer to answer questions with regards to problems/delays in the 950. It was (is?) a bad situation that has calmed down with the first shipments of 950 for early adopters....until this thread popped up. Actually, it has been pretty civil here to everyone's credit.

As noted above, RAF has used this terminology as a joke based on what happened. Hope that clears it up some. Maybe RAF can fill in the gaps if I missed anything.

 

[John Corkery]

If I didn't already have a 950 in my rack there would be a 1066 on that shelf.

And I'm pretty sure that if I could've bought a 950 two months ago, I would've done so.

 

[Jed M]

Hey guys, look at me, I'm back from my self imposed 950/1066 ban. I just thought I need to clear up a few of my thoughts on this issue. I know I have probably over exagerrated a few times but if you go back and read all of my posts you will see I am usually provoked in some way. I am non confrontational by nature and I try to stay away from the boards that are known for confrontations. I love Rotel and until very recently I was seriously considering trying the 1066 to hear how it sounds. Two things kept me from this, 1. they are coming out with a big brother to the 1066 so I will just wait (I've become very good at this). 2. I know some people think I'm a lunatic for this but I need component switching. Before you take a shot at my tv please remember that not many tv's have 3 HD inputs. That ultimately lead me to not try the 1066, not my loyalty to Outlaw, which I agree with RAF too and I've made my feeling felt on their forum about waiting any longer. I can guarantee you if I was not in the second wave of shipping I would be a proud 1066 owner with a manual radio shack a/v switcher. 1066 owners such as Andrew, Jeff, Mark, John and mostly everyone else are extremely informative and straight shooters. If I didn't mention you don't assume I am talking about you please, these guys just jumped into my head. There are a couple that have an ax to grind with Outlaw that they thinly disguise by making inflammatory comments about the quality of their products. These are the people that lead me to say my sometimes stupid replies so I try to refrain. If you notice I don't participate in threads like "lets face it people the 1066 is a way better value" because that is basically a Outlaw bashing thread and that kind of stuff does not interest me. That is what I am referring to when I make the kind of statements I made above. I can handle criticism fine, in fact I have been critical of the Outlaw in a few departments and quite frankly I can't believe a company would just totally ignore their consumer base the way they are right now. Irreparable damage has been done and to me that's a shame, but never less in my opinion it doesn't excuse their behavior. I just think it comes down to what I guess RAF would term "the usual suspects" that make it not worth it to me to participate here. I am still around, just not in the 1066/950 threads until things start to settle down a bit.

 

[RAF]

chung (not to be confused with "Chung" who is banned),
Normally I would not continue this dialog here since, as Jack Briggs mentioned, it's something that doesn't belong in this thread. But since I brought this up and I assume you were responding to my remarks in a genuine fashion, I'll take a little time to comment and to clarify something that you obviously misunderstood about my previous post.
First, I want to welcome you back to the forum. It's unfortunate that you were temporarily suspended by one of our administrators when you were confused with another member who had been banned but your confrontational posting style was misinterpreted since it was so close to that of the banned member. I assume that you and the administrator involved have ironed this all out privately since you are back. (Any further discussions on that issue belong in private e-mail between you and that administrator, not with me, and certainly not here in the public forum.)
Second, on the matter of OPINIONS you misrepresent my position on this. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and I would be the last person to stifle this type of dialog. After all, opinions are the foundation of a lot of forum threads. However, there are a few times when there are on-going discussions where people are trying to find out facts about a piece of equipment be it Outlaw, or Rotel, or whatever. Before the equipment is widely available there is often a lot of conjecture (or opinion) based on hearsay or educated (or non-educated) guessing that, after a while, doesn't add to the fact-finding, but just clouds the issue. In those rare cases where this occurs, we here at the HTF have taken the position that we would like people with personal experience with a particular unit to relate those experiences so that we get some first-hand information. Those are the cases where we will say, "Please, only comment if you have actually used the unit, not if you are just offering an opinion."
The latest example of this, but not the only one by any means over the years, was the introduction of the Outlaw 950. Only a few people, the beta testers, actually had experience with this unit, and the threads were peppered with a lot of guessing by those who were waiting for their 950s or contemplating a purchase. This was fine (and a lot of misinformation was going around based on conjecture) at the outset but when customers actually started getting their 950s we respectfully asked people who hadn't actually used the 950 to step aside and let actual users tell their story. That's where the "no opinions, please" issue came in. However, there were several individuals who, even though they had had ample opportunity to make the "opinions" known, for one reason or another chose not to honor our request. At that point, with several people it did become personal and in a couple of cases deteriorated to the point where forum rules on personal attacks were violated. I remember many people, myself included, saying "Hey, this is only equipment we are talking about."
You have taken that specialized case and made it a generalization about the HTF which is really not fair. Anyone who has been a member of the HTF for any length of time and regularly reads the forum realizes that this is not general policy and you have distorted the spirit of what we are doing here. Additionally, in the infamous thread that got you temporarily banned you presented a quasi-scientific approach, including an arbitrary ratings system that disguised the fact that you were not talking from experience with the 950, but just offering your opinion. In other words, you were doing exactly what we requested that people not do (guessing rather than sharing actual information) so you were immediately monitored by the administrators as someone who was being a provocateur. The fact that others came to your defense by stating that "nobody would actually think you are presenting facts" begs the issue since you clearly were continuing the discussion based on conjecture when it had run its course.
I have no problem with people venting and I actually think its a good thing. That's what this thread is all about. It is discussing the way that Outlaw has performed as a vendor, not how the Outlaw 950 has performed as a pre/pro and, therefore, people should and are offering their opinions on this (although you have managed, once again, to throw in a dig about the performance of the 950 with your "ultimately a disappointment" jab when we are, as I said, discussing the performance of Outlaw, the company and not Outlaw, the pre-amp. I have to ask, have you heard one yet?)
But based on some of the comments in your reply I think I may have hit on the real problem here. Please don't take this the wrong way because I am not trying to insult you here but just trying to understand what's going on. If you offended by what I'm about to say, I apologize in advance because I mean no disrespect. I don't think you are trying to "take me to task" and never did so I have no problem on that score. However, some of your remarks lead me to believe that you didn't understand what I wrote.
There are several cases (like the "opinion" issue) where you are twisting the original intent of my message and the HTF policy. That can either be intentional or unintentional. I'd like to think that in this case it's the latter because of some language misunderstanding.
But the clincher is when you completer misunderstand my "unwitting Rotel pawn" remark (complete with two smilies which clearly indicates it was a joke.) Others here obviously "got" the joke but you didn't and you came up with a bunch of scenarios that are totally off the mark. Let me explain it to you.
Ironically, even though I've been wrongly accused of being an "unwitting Outlaw pawn" I actually am taking Outlaw to task in this thread (as I have in a couple of other recent threads since I feel they are dropping the ball on answering customers' questions.) In fact I clearly stated that if I didn't have a 950 by now I would own a 1066. My last comment meant that I'm pretty sure that now some of the same people who accused me of being an Outlaw pawn would now accuse me of being a Rotel pawn. I actually think that it's quite funny that this remark, made in jest, is being used against me by you. You either really completely missed the point of my joke (others didn't) or you have an agenda that goes much deeper than equipment and opinions, etc. I would hope that it is the former, since that would explain a lot of the mis-communication. But if it is the latter then I suggest an attitude change since provocation will only take you so far.
Not understanding what somebody wrote is one thing. Twisting one's words around to use against somebody is quite another, especially if it becomes a pattern of behavior. I trust you understand.

 

[Sankar]

Damn RAF! I was almost convinced that you were indeed an "unwitting Rotel pawn" ... now you go and burst that bubble!

 

[Michael Hurst]

Don't you think it's great that two companies products are so closely match that arguments break out. I think this is good for both groups; Rotel will keep Outlaw honest and Outlaw will keep Rotel honest. I am sure going forward we all win with better afordable gear.

One comment

2. I know some people think I'm a lunatic for this but I need component switching. Before you take a shot at my tv please remember that not many tv's have 3 HD inputs. That ultimately lead me to not try the 1066, not my loyalty to Outlaw, which I agree with RAF too and I've made my feeling felt on their forum about waiting any longer.

I thought about this long and hard before I made my purchase. The HD CP with DVI and FireWire concern me and neither pre can switch any of the digital protocols. HD switching I think, IMHO, is a moot point.

 

[John Tompkins]

I salute those of you who have the youthfull energy to continue this circular debate. I am surpised and sometimes amazed at the amount of different ways to say the same thing over and over again..
I have not been posting on this subject lately as it is pointless. If the 950 has the features and price that YOU want then go for it, same goes for the Rotel. I do agree with the original point about the almighty 950 falling from htf favor, hell it was bound to happen given all the unrealistic hype here on this forum(just another fine choice among a many a growing number)
Outlaw blew it a long time ago in my opinion..with the month after month bogus release date fiasco. They crucified themselves and missed the boat by not releasing it when the 950 would have been the only game in town.
One last thing, I was reading over on HT-talk that a looong time member and avid 950 supporter here on this site that was banned recently is going to get a Lexicon mc-1 or dc-2...but also said that he would probably keep the 950 too.

 

[Craig_Kg]

I agree with John Tompkins on the big problem with Outlaw being in their method of dealing with the delays of their product. Stringing people out to keep them from buying another product is bound to annoy most people. Maybe some of them feel the need to invent further reasons to fuel their displeasure but that's not right either.

Good luck to those who have got their 950 - I think people are jealous, if anything but I'd buy what was available rather than waiting an indeterminate time.

 

[Steven Simon]

Now, as for the outlaw 950, it was surrounded by too much hype and was ultimately a disappointment, for the most part, because it could not live up to the hype.

Chung,

I firmly disagree with your comments about the 950 not living up to the hype. Have you had a 950 in your system?? Have you done extensive listening with the unit?? What are you basing your statement on??

 

[RAF]

Stringing people out to keep them from buying another product is bound to annoy most people.

Craig,
I honestly don't believe that this was Outlaw's game plan, although I can see why some people might come to this conclusion out of frustration or cynicism. I've dealt with the people at Outlaw long enough to think that they had good intentions that got a little out of hand with things beyond their control.
That said, I am going on record as stating that there is no excuse for Outlaw's lack of information regarding the very real concerns that many people have had regarding delivery dates, technical information, etc. I realize that some of this information might be proprietary in a very competitive field, but the silence from Outlaw must be deafening to those who have placed their orders and hoped to have their units by now.
When I started beta testing in January I fully expected that 950s would be available in quantity by April (according to Outlaw). And as one who felt (and still feels) that the 950 offers a great price/performance ratio I based much of my commentary on this assumption. As we all know, the price of technology continues to drop as the capabilities expand (Moore's Law). The longer that Outlaw takes to get the 950 out the door in quantity the smaller their window of opportunity becomes. And to some, the advantage over more expensive alternatives has already evaporated. I must agree with the person who said that it's going to be very hard for other companies who are planning to re-badge the 950 and sell it for about the same cost as the 1066 to justify the price to knowledgeable consumers. However, as we know, not all consumers are wise in the ways of HT so there will probably be a market, but not here.
And it should now be obvious to even the casual follower of this entire situation that it is imperative to offer some sort of upgrade path for the software since improvements are always on the horizon. Actually, "imperative" might be too strong a word ("desirable" might be a better fit) since products in almost every endeavor are constantly being improved in successive production runs that most of the populace is not even aware of. If your product performs to your expectations you will be satisfied. Don't confuse this with product defects which always involve (or should involve) a recall. For example, in the auto industry the car you purchase today is probably slightly different from the "identical" model someone else purchased three months ago. And most people aren't even aware of the difference. However, if tires start coming apart then everyone gets a notice. Bad analogy? Perhaps, but I think you see my point.

 

[Craig_Kg]

I firmly disagree with your comments about the 950 not living up to the hype. Have you had a 950 in your system?? Have you done extensive listening with the unit?? What are you basing your statement on??

Probably, the hype that Chung refers to was the expectations that were brought about by the advanced specifications when the 950 was first developed. With the delays, what looked like a highly advanced feature set has now become, if not commonplace, then not particularly special.

 

[Will Gatlin Jr]

ahhhh, nevermind!!

 

[Jeff Kohn]

Well, Outlaw finally put out a response to the questions about delayed shipments, noise floor etc. They basically confirm that shipments have stopped and they're trying to fix the problem. Here's the message:

At this time, it has become obvious that an update is necessary on the status of the 950. While earlier delivery estimates have fallen short, this has never been our intention. However, as you know, shipping of the Model 950 has come to a stop. As you may also know, a small number of units have shipped with an abnormal level of hiss.
The cause of this hiss has become the topic of heavy debate in the Outlaw Saloon as well as in other online forums. It has also become a significant burden to our engineers here in the United States as well as our engineering team in Malaysia. Literally working around the clock we have been able to isolate a few potential causes. Further complicating things is the fact that this problem is confined to a small sample of units making it harder, not easier, to solve. There are many individual factors pertaining to each installation which means a "fix" that works in the lab might not work in the field. The hardware and software engineering required to get to the bottom of things is a very time consuming process. If everyone had the same problem, it would be easy.
The "good news" is, while the reports of problems sometimes seem magnified by postings on the forums, their actual number in proportion to the number of units shipped is very small. The "bad news" is that the small number of samples and the variations in the way in which the problems manifest themselves make the solution harder to reach.
We are continuing to investigate the root cause for this anomaly, and will continue our commitment to resolving this issue for each and every consumer. Since several customers have contacted us regarding a lack of communication regarding both the status of the 950 and our intentions, here is our interim proposal:
· If your 950 exhibits an abnormal level of hiss, please send an e-mail with the serial number of your unit and your name, phone number and address to [email protected]. We will then send confirmation of your letter. Once a universal fix has been established we will process your request and tell you how to send the unit back to our warehouse and service center. We will arrange for a pick-up by FedEx Ground at our expense, and we will ship a modified unit back to you prepaid.
· The timing for all of this will be worked out with you via e-mail.
Given that anyone who was unhappy with their initial unit has already had the option to return it within the 30-day audition period, we feel that this is a reasonable way to accommodate those who appreciate the sonics and features of the Model 950.
In addition, we will begin to provide more timely updates regarding the status of the product. What we can not do is provide estimates as to when individual units will ship. Calling/e-mailing the Sales and Support office regarding this status will only further hinder our ability to work efficiently at resolving the issue. However, we will continue to encourage any and all contact regarding the operation, use, and/or integration of our equipment.
One last comment. While we have been extremely liberal regarding the use of our Saloon, we have NEVER stopped reading it or any other industry news boards. Due to the roller coaster like nature of the hiss problem we felt it would have done more harm than good to comment in many of the ongoing threads. Giving out information that ultimately proves to be inaccurate only makes the situation worse for everyone. These new, timelier updates will inform you of our continuing progress in dealing with this situation.
We thank you for your patience and understanding.
Best Regards,
The Outlaws

 

[Bob_L]

One last thing, I was reading over on HT-talk that a looong time member and avid 950 supporter here on this site that was banned recently is going to get a Lexicon mc-1 or dc-2...but also said that he would probably keep the 950 too.

That individual made it very clear that he was doing this out of curiosity about the performance of Logic 7 on the Lex. No other reason.

"Hey, I went to a fight the other day and a home theater forum thread broke out!"

 

[Will Gatlin Jr]

Outlaws...

Sounds like a broken record...that's gonna keep breaking.

 

[RAF]

Hey, I went to a fight the other day and a home theater forum thread broke out!

And I went to a chess match the other day and became an "unwitting pawn."

 

[TomH]

Any company that conducts business in this manner will never see a dime from me.

Would you rather give your dime to Denon who sells to every possible retail outlet and then denies warranty service if you purchase from the "unauthorized" dealer,
or,from Sony with the worst service reputation in the industry, or from Onkyo who has misrepresented power specs beyond reason, or from B&K who never responds to customer inquiries.....?
Outlaw has had difficulty delivering products in a timely manner but several major manufacturers have had similar problems. At least Outlaw tried to keep customers informed.
Outlaw monitors the forums and has responded to every serious problem or issue reported on the 950. Units with problems are replaced and the trial period extended. So far their customer service has been exceptional. These people really are trying.

Tom