Outlaw 950 Pre/Pro Reviewed!!!!! (1 Viewer)

[Steven Simon]

80 it is...

 

[Camp]

Yea, and I'd like to hear a comparison between the CES modes and Logic 7. Can CES even begin to compete?

 

[Steven Simon]

Steven- Got to admit, that I was a little nervous when you began the review with the Sony VCR and 22 gauge wire...

Yes you can on the DTS /Cirrus question. It says DTS Cirrus Cinema on the screen.

 

[John Morris]

Steve: Got a few questions for you.

- Are you using the RP-91 as source unit for all CD playback too?

- If so, have you tried comparing the stereo analog bypass versus the digital hookup and onboard 950 DACs? If so, which did you like best, and why?

- Are you currently hooked up for and have you tried any DVD-A discs yet? Are you using the switchable 80Hz crossover for DVD-A?

- Since you are running nice Studio 100s up front(25Hz), have you tried setting the front L,R channel crossover to 60Hz? I'm guessing that the bass drivers in your Paradigms may be a bit more cohesive with their own mids and tweets than the SVS bass drivers? My fronts also supposedly go down to 25Hz and I found that 60Hz was the sweet spot for my speaks and my Ultra. It also removed all hints of subbass directionality by dropping down from 80Hz to 60 Hz. Then again, you may just want to keep all three of your crossovers set for 80Hz rather than mixing a 60Hz upfront, and a 80Hz for center and rears?

Try it and let us know, if you haven't already tried it.

 

[John Morris]

I have found that the triple crossover is just a mask for inadequate subwoofers.

Shane: Hmmm, I would have thought that the triple crossovers were a mask for less than full range speakers, not to mask a bad sub?

Please tell us what you mean?

 

[Shane Martin]

Take a non capable of reference level subwoofer(like my M&K of which you are familiar with).

By setting the mains to small with a lower crossover you are basically allowing MORE bass to enter the front speakers/rears/center of which you are using and taking that bass away from the Subwoofer thus relieving it of some stress. By upping the crossover you are sending those additional tones to the subwoofer thus making it work more. If you have a less than optimal subwoofer, you are stressing it more.

Keep in mind this is based on my ears in listening to my room with a friends Sonotube.

I have a triple crossover in my Sony 444es. I used to be convinced I needed it. After hearing a proper subwoofer I'm convinced I've got a lightweight subwoofer.

 

[Shane Martin]

In addition I'm not quite sure that the Outlaw allows for the use of the triple crossover when connected to the analog outs. I could be wrong.

 

[John Morris]

Shane: Actually, it seems like we are both saying kinda the same thing but from opposite ends of the Hz.

And no, the triple crossover is not available for either analog bypass or for SACD/DVD-A inputs. It only works in the digital domain for any signal that is processed. Some examples are DD/DTS, DPL-2, Cirrus Expanded Surround, and even Stereo 5 and 7 modes.

 

[Steven Simon]

John,

I'm using the 950's Dacs for Music. No SACD, or DVD Audio as of yet. I suppose since I have the Panni RP91 I could give the DVD-A a try at some point. As far as my crossover settings, all speakers are set to 80Hz.

 

[BruceD]

Shane,

I'm not sure what you're using for main speakers, but Outlaw's "triple xover" was probably not designed to "mask for inadequate subwoofers" as you said.

Speakers and rooms interact together to produce what you hear. An optimized xover frequency is an integral part of this sound experience.

Now if you have five identical full range speakers, or five THX speakers, than maybe adjustable xovers don't matter and you can ignore the rest of this message.

My observation is that many of us have main, center and surround speakers that have different frequency response curves.

I have experimented extensively over the last 2 years with a high quality electronic xover on my very capable Dynaudio Contour 2.8 main speakers (-3dB @31Hz) to an M&K MX-700 sub.

The conclusion I reached with sophisticated acoustic measurement PC software and a calibreated mic, in addition to my listening tests, is that the optimum xover is @60Hz in my listening room. I primarily listen to music, 90/10 music/HT, so correct tonal pitch and a smooth xover transition is very important to me.

The dilema I face is that I need a higher xover frequency for my Dynaudio center channel and surrounds. This situation is probably shared by many on this forum. I think the "triple xover" may be of some real benefit here.

Setting all 5 speakers to an 80Hz xover is a THX standard for THX speakers, but may not work well for everyone with non-THX speakers.

 

[Will]

main speakers (-3dB @31Hz)

---

the optimum xover is @60Hz in my listening room.

That result agrees with a rule of thumb that I've heard. The rule of thumb is to crossover at or above about twice the -3db frequency point of the speakers. That's just a rule of thumb and with all rules like this, there are plenty of exceptions.

 

[Mifr44]

The one problem I see with a crossover for the mains is the desire to use an analog bypass mode for 2 channel stereo. I have determined that while the DACs in my prepro are the best I have heard in a prepro, the DACs in my CDP are better. So, when using an 2 channel analog bypass in my system the mains are getting a full-range signal.

So, I am considering one of two solutions, either an external crossover for the mains and the sub, or using one of ACI's passive filters (65Hz or 85Hz) for the mains and setting a crossover for the sub.

So, why do I bring this up? Well, with my mains set up as described above, I will need a crossover in the prepro just for the center and rear speakers. Chances are most people will probably be able to use the same crossover for the center and rear speakers.

Michael

 

[Yohan Pamudji]

Wouldn't it be nice if you could have different crossover settings for different sources/material? For instance setting mains to "large" for music and "small" for HT. That way with 2-channel music the sub wouldn't kick in, while with HT where critical listening isn't as big a deal the sub could take over everything under, say, 60 Hz. I'm assuming this isn't a feature of the 950 or any pre/pro for that matter?

 

[Doug_B]

Wouldn't it be nice if you could have different crossover settings for different sources/material? For instance setting mains to "large" for music and "small" for HT. That way with 2-channel music the sub wouldn't kick in, while with HT where critical listening isn't as big a deal the sub could take over everything under, say, 60 Hz. I'm assuming this isn't a feature of the 950 or any pre/pro for that matter?

The Anthem AVM-20 has a rudimentary capability in this area. Two different sets of settings in the setup menu can be saved, and the speaker size settings, x-over freq, etc, are stored here. Could be made easy to switch between them with remote macros, but maintaining the settings could be a chore (e.g., making a change to one set may require the same change to another). I actually used these two when breaking in my speakers. When in unattended break-in mode, I used a sub-less, large setting for the 5 channels. When watching a movie, the x-over was effective with sub. Generally, though, very basic and not to be used as an everyday feature.

I don't feel that the example provided is necessarily a good one in many cases. If one has a decent CDP and chooses to listen to 2ch music with analog bypass / direct set up on the pre/pro, the mains run large without sub (assuming the sub is not in-line with the mains, of course), independent of the digital bass mgmt settings. So you can have your cake and eat it too; no need for different x-over settings. With the 950 and its analog bass mgmt option (right?), this scenario may be a bit different.

Doug

 

[Gene Lockaby]

Steve -

No SACD, or DVD Audio as of yet. I suppose since I have the Panni RP91 I could give the DVD-A a try at some point.

Do yourself a favor and pick up six more audio interconnects and hook up your RP91's 5.1 analog out to the 950.
Go to www.aixrecords.com and order their sampler. You really need to hear this, particularly the Zephyrs track.
Regards - Gene

 

[Mifr44]

"Wouldn't it be nice if you could have different crossover settings for different sources/material? For instance setting mains to "large" for music and "small" for HT. That way with 2-channel music the sub wouldn't kick in, while with HT where critical listening isn't as big a deal the sub could take over everything under, say, 60 Hz. I'm assuming this isn't a feature of the 950 or any pre/pro for that matter?"

Actually, most processors that have a true analog bypass mode work this way. In analog bypass mode for 2 channel sources, the mains are set to "large" and the subwoofer is off (there are some prepros that give you an option for output to the sub even for analog bypass, although in most cases it is the same full-range signal being sent to the mains).

The Anthem AVM-20 does this. I have my CDP set to analog bypass, my DVD player defaulted to digital input, and my VCR set to analog DSP mode. For the CDP, the mains are "large" with no sub. For the DVD player and VCR, all speakers are "small" with a 60 Hz crossover, with all low bass being sent to the subwoofer.

If I didn't want a subwoofer active for 2 channel music, then there would be no problem. But since I would like the sub to handle the last octave or so to fill in the mains, that's when the method of connecting the system gets tricky (provided one wants to use the analog bypass mode).

Michael

 

[Kevin C Brown]

The one problem I see with a crossover for the mains is the desire to use an analog bypass mode for 2 channel stereo.

I personally wish that the 80 Hz analog crossover applicable to the 5.1 analog input was *also* available for 2 channel analog stereo bypass... Maybe for rev 2.0, or the 950's someday big brother!

 

[Mifr44]

"I personally wish that the 80 Hz analog crossover applicable to the 5.1 analog input was *also* available for 2 channel analog stereo bypass..."

Wouldn't you still have a problem with either bass overlap (if the mains are capable below 80 Hz) or a void in the bass (if the mains can't produce -3dB @ 80 Hz)?

Michael

 

[John Morris]

Do yourself a favor and pick up six more audio interconnects and hook up your RP91's 5.1 analog out to the 950.

I think that Gene says this, is because he, like me, already knows how wonderful the 5.1 direct input, and analog bypass modes of this unit are... simple invisible! As good as the DAC processing is, the simple pass through modes of this unit are oh so, even better! This is the reason why this unit is better, IMO, than the Ref 30 and the Lexicon DC-2, and at least the equal of the MC-1.
If I could bet, I'd say that with regard to 5.1 and analog bypass throughput for music, we are at the beginning of non-rewarding diminishing returns for all the more expensive pre/pros, starting with the Outlaw 950.(You can quote me on this!)

 

[brian a]

With the 950 being the pinnacle of audio perfection that it is, why is it that we keep hearing people talk about the Outlaws releasing a "high end" processor in the future. If the 950 has everything anyone could want (it sounds like it does), why make a more expensive unit? Is it the case that they simply scrapped the low end piece along the way and made the 950 the high end unit that they talked about earlier?

And based on your above statement, merc, would you be willing to say now that if outlaw does release a high end processor in the future that sonically it wouldn't be worth it to pay for it over the 950 or to upgrade to it from the 950?