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Outlaw 950: Miss the boat by not having 7.1?

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Randy G, Sep 23, 2001.

  1. Randy G

    Randy G Second Unit

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    I was just reading on their website that they are going to have their own proprietary 6.1 surround mode for matrixed or stereo sources. Seems to me that they missed the boat by not having something to compete with Lexicon's Logic7, Cinepro's Music7, Thx Ultra 2, Meridian's 7-channel TriField, etc. etc.
    I realize that DPLII will probably come in a 7 channel version in another year or two, but it seems to me that the Outlaws may have missed the boat by not including it in their new baby. Hopefully, it will be included in their list of surprise features????
     
  2. John Morris

    John Morris Guest

    6.1 vs 7.1 - one extra rear center speaker... is that all ther differences there are?
    Are any of the aforementioned playback formats discrete or are they all ambience extracted, matrixed formats?
    If they are not discrete, can't the center rear channel merely be split to provide two center rear channels, both of which spit out the matrixed center rear signal?
    Personally, I enjoy movie playback in 7.1 of DD-EX and DTS-ES encoded DVDs... still, I usually prefer my music playback via good old analog bypass, 2 channel direct mode without any digital processing if possible. I prefer my music to sound clean and clear with a huge and deep, yet distinct soundstage, with pinpoint imaging. For me, if Outlaw can make their 950 do this for less than $900, I'll buy two of them. In fact, I already went out and bought a phono preamp in anticipation of its' release.... [​IMG] To me, the number one thing I want my preamp to be is... quiet. Only after that should a company worry about adding the bells and whistles like DSPs and ambience extractors. Also, adding Logic 7 would probably be cost prohibitive since I'm sure Lexicon (or whoever owns logic 7)would charge a bunch for its' inclusion in the Outlaw 950.
    ------------------
    Take Care,
    merc
    ----------------
    [​IMG]
    God Bless America!!!
     
  3. Randy G

    Randy G Second Unit

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    I agree with most of your priorities, but if you've ever listened to Logic7, you'd probably agree that it's something truly special. Extracting the stereo rear channels is different than taking the rear center and dividing it into two....dual mono vs. stereo. I think Lexicon does something with the phase to get stereo out of the rear channel. Plus, it adds the appropriate delays and volume for the individual speaker locations.
    If you ever get the opportunity to listen to your favorite CD thru Logic7, you'll most likely feel an urge to purchase a Lex, and yes, it would probably be cost prohibitive to for Outlaw to purchase it from Lex. Then again, if they agreed to not call it Logic7, maybe they could finagle something.
     
  4. Jah-Wren Ryel

    Jah-Wren Ryel Stunt Coordinator

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    There is a rumour, which I'm helping to spread by posting on it a second time, that the 950 will include something called "crystal surround." My speculation, and mine alone, so far, is that the "crystal" part refers to their use of a Crystal DSP and this surround algorithm is probably something that Crystal makes available to anyone designing with that DSP. But, it is entirely speculatable that this surround format also does something special with the L/R rear surrounds.
     
  5. Hank Frankenberg

    Hank Frankenberg Cinematographer

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    I think I started that rumor a month ago when I read about the Crystal chip in an upcoming Sherwood receiver. It mentioned a new surround method by Crystal and said it would be the first receiver implementation, so I guessed that Outlaw's surprise might be the first pre/pro implementation. We'll see...
    ------------------
    "Do you expect me to talk?"
    "No Mr. Bond, I expect you to die!"
     
  6. Randy G

    Randy G Second Unit

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    Rumors aside, I'd love to see a link to that information.
    Thanks,
    Randy
     
  7. John Cain

    John Cain Second Unit

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    Will this Outlaw Pre/Pro have DTS-ES Discrete, and DD-EX ???
    IOW will it have the 7.1 type mainstream surround modes, or their own proprietary mode??
    And will this pre/pro have outputs for 7.1?? (Two Rear Surround Speakers, or for just one Center Rear Speaker??)
    -- John
    [Edited last by John Cain on October 01, 2001 at 06:15 PM]
     
  8. Randy G

    Randy G Second Unit

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    I'm curious to know the same, John.
     
  9. Tony Lai

    Tony Lai Stunt Coordinator

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    I think one P. Sklenar posted a prelim. spec sheet and pix.
    Basically it has Dolby EX 6.1, dts-es 6.1, dpl II and a slew of DSP modes including some purportedly excellent multichannel music modes.
    I don't think it's more than 6.1 - I could dig up the photos that Pat posted and magnify them and have a look but it looks like it's a 6.1 rather than a 7.1 preamp.
    It is a bit of a downer if it is because I know a lot of people would love a THX 7.1 preamp, even a 'fake' 7.1 preamp as Onkyo's 797 receiver has 6 channel amplification but 7.1 preouts.
    Of course it all remains to be seen as the proto pix were a while ago and who knows, maybe they added 7.1 preouts or even THX Surround EX 7.1 (we can only hope :)
    T.
     
  10. Patrick R. Sklenar

    Patrick R. Sklenar Second Unit

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    This -
    http://www.outlawaudio.com/news/sept_950.html - is what's known about the Model 950 at this time.
    Here - http://members.home.com/psklenar/outlaw2.htm - is my simple web page with pictures of the engineering prototype that was shown at the Home Entertainment show in NYC back in May.
    Also, if you call Outlaw, or drop them an email, they're really pretty darn good about getting back to you and answering such questions to the best of thier abilities.
    Hth,
    ------------------
    pat----
    home: [email protected] ... office: [email protected]
    no home page yet, so ...
    Entertainment Center ---==*==--- DVD Collection
     
  11. Martice

    Martice Screenwriter

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    I find it amusing that when discussing this product, most people seem to be more concerened with how many speakers this pre/pro will be able to handle than how it sounds or may or maynot effect the overall sound. I think Merc was the only one who addressed this issue. With all the hype surrounding the Outlaw 950 I would flip if this unit performed at 95% of my Adcom GFP 750 in 2 channel. I would purchase this unit in a minute with it's bad looks and all. I would give up the 6 and 7.1 features if this unit did 2-channel well and still allowed me to enjoy good old 5.1 because I think 5.1 is still capable of breath taking performance ESPECIALLY when it's done RIGHT.
    What's more important to some of you? One or two extra speakers or exceptional 2-channel capability coupled with 5.1?
    ------------------
    What if it gets no better than this!?!
     
  12. Patrick R. Sklenar

    Patrick R. Sklenar Second Unit

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  13. Randy G

    Randy G Second Unit

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    I agree.
    I kinda take it as a granted that the 2-channel performance will be acceptable to me, and am more interested in seeing a competitor to Meridian's TriField or Lexicon's Logic7 for less cash. I think competition is good for us end users.
     
  14. Tony Lai

    Tony Lai Stunt Coordinator

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    Well I'm more interested in HT performance (what forum are we in btw??? :)
    I think it's vitally important whether this is a 6.1 or 7.1 preamp - the opposition is already 8 channels and it must be an alterative to these preamps. If it's 6.1, it's a major blow IMO because I think many people here want THX Surround EX 7.1 or a close facsimilie.
    If you really want two channel, go buy a Krell KRC3 or any high quality preamp and add it between the 950 and your poweramp.
    For $950, I don't expect it to sound much like any audiophile grade two channel preamp (except maybe a bad one...)
    T.
     
  15. Doug_B

    Doug_B Screenwriter

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    Since I'm building a new HT system from scratch, I'm not interested in anything beyond 5.1 at this time. I was originally looking at a receiver for control, but when the 950 was announced in the first half of the year with the expected price < $1K, that's when I made my decision to go with separates.
    Thus, I am looking for good 5.1 performance, and since it will be a 50/50 HT/music system, good 2 ch performance as well. If I feel the need to get better 2 ch performance than what the 950 provides, I'll complement the setup with a 2 ch pre. I also like the idea of adjustable crossovers. It allows for more degrees of freedom / tweakability with floorstanding mains. As for more than 5.1 channels, I don't know what I'll want down the road, but I'm not sure that my room has the depth to make the best use of rear channels (although I did prewire into my back wall).
    At this point for my room /system-to-be, the 950 is THE critical path item on the schedule, so I very much hope there will be no more delays (and thus would love to be on a November delivery wave).
    Doug
     
  16. Kevin C Brown

    Kevin C Brown Producer

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    "7.1" is the same as "6.1", but with an additional rear speaker. (2 on the side, 1 in back, vs 2 in back)
    So for me, who already has 6.1, but no additional room or desire to add another rear speaker, no big loss.
    And I imagine that's the same for a lot of other people as well.
    Here's my guess of all HT's out there now:
    80 - 95% 5.1
    3.5 - 15% 6.1
    1.5 - 5% 7.1
    Forget about the audience of this forum for a second. *All* home theater's. Even those including Bose. [​IMG]
    And, I would expect the 2 channel sound of the 950, based on the 750 and 1050, to be in the same league as the Sony TA-E9000ES, Marantz AV9000, Parasound, Adcom, Rotel, maybe even B&K and other pre/pro's pushing $2000 - $3000 (US) list. It's not hard to create good 2 channel sound: just no DSP (or at least high grade D/A and A/D's with 24/96 capability) and/or a direct analog path.
    And even if you really wanted to have 7.1? Use a splitter on that 6th channel.
    ------------------
     
  17. Randy G

    Randy G Second Unit

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    "if you really want 7.1, then put a splitter on that 6th channel"
    Kevin,
    What Lexicon does with Logic7 is to extract STEREO rear surrounds from the regular 2 rear channels. Putting a splitter on the 6th channel(as you suggest) would only give you dual MONO surround sound for the rear channels. Doesn't seem like much difference, but if you've ever heard a proper Logic7(all 7 channels) setup, you'd understand.
     
  18. Brian Bunge

    Brian Bunge Producer

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    "if you really want 7.1, then put a splitter on that 6th channel"
    Not to mention that (assuming dual 8ohm speakers) you'd probably be wiring these speakers in parallel and creating a 4 ohm load to your amp. Or you could wire them in series and have a 16 ohm load. Neither sounds like it would be very beneficial and could potentially be damaging.
    Brian
     
  19. Martice

    Martice Screenwriter

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    I don't know about you guys but I've come to understand that it's much more difficult and critical to get 2-channel music right then it is to get HT audio right. When purchasing my speakers, I used familiar music in order to give me an idea of what my speaker sounded like. I understand that this is a HT forum but realizing that your front mains are more important than your surround speakers (especially your 6th & 7th ones)is all the more reason why you would see to it that the pre/pro used is able to present your source material in a competent and honest way without adding any colorations or sounds of it's own. I believe in high performance HT( not necessarily high priced) and if the 950 is capable of providing performance that for it's price it's a clear no brainer, then I will be ordering one. However, if it's ability to perform on a high level, especially out of 2 of the 3 most important speakers(the center channel being the other) is compromised for the sake of a 6th or 7th speaker or any other feature, then some of us have some choices to make about sacrifices.
    ------------------
    What if it gets no better than this!?!
     
  20. TomH

    TomH Second Unit

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    The photo shows 7.1 in and out.
     

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