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Ou sont les compression horns? (1 Viewer)

Frank Grimes

Second Unit
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Jul 19, 2002
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I've visit this forum moderately often, and I haven't really seen much mention of using HLCD's in DIY projects. They seem fairly prevalent in concert type speakers, and I've been impressed by their applications in car audio, so why not take advantage of their efficiency/SPL capabilities? Do room acoustics play a part that would favor tweeters/ribbons?
 

TimForman

Supporting Actor
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Dec 4, 2002
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847
I've never seen anybody use them in home audio but I'd be interested in seeing some specs on them. I'm suspecting there might impedence or off-axis issues but without some measurements there's no way to know.
 

Frank Grimes

Second Unit
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Jul 19, 2002
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260
I don't see how impedence would be an issue, and I assure you that they perform very well off axis (from my experiences in car audio, at least).
 

TimForman

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Dec 4, 2002
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847
I see Parts Express sells a variety of compression drivers in their Pro Audio section. Some of them are quite expensive. It's a valid question though, and an interesting one. Probably worth investigating. I've noticed that JBL has created a no-compromise (as they put it) home system using a horn. JBL
 

Allen Ross

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Joined
Sep 30, 2002
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check out Pi speakers they make some nice kits of a simple 2 way with compression drivers.

one flaw that they have is they can't get the highest octave, usually peatier out around 16Khz.

Also if my knowledge is correct they don't like sealed boxes.


BTW Grimmie i thought you were dead :D
 

Allen Ross

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Sep 30, 2002
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hun?

is it an addition to compression drivers? or just beefier version?

tell me more i am interested and plan on building a set of Pi Theater Series monitors.
 

Frank Grimes

Second Unit
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Jul 19, 2002
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260
I think he's just referring to using an additional tweeter to pick up above 16khz.

Anyone have experience with horns? Can some one at least give me a reason NOT to go with horns in my next install? The only downside that I can think of is the obvious difficulty in matching surround/center channels. Methinks I should have put the thread title in native English so as to attract more views...

And I did die, but I had to come back for my pencils with my name on them (you know, like a pencil company executive).
 

Brett DiMichele

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Sep 30, 2001
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Real Name
Brett
I would think that there are 3 key reasons you don't see
horns used more often in the home..

#1 Good Compression Horn Drivers are VERY expensive.....
Especialy TAD, Selenium and JBL

#2 Matching these with a Midrange means finiding a mid that
is extremely sensitive or really padding the tweeter down
in which case defeats the point of having a horn.

#3 Some people just don't like horns.. Some don't like the
way they sound.. Loud, In your face, Bright etc..

Those are my guesses! :)
 

Bill Fagal

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Jul 8, 2002
Messages
166
Horns are in the hiz-aus!

Horns got untouchable skills in terms of dynamics, compression, AMD, and pattern control.

Here's a fun mental exercise I've been tweaking recently: A budget version of the Westlake Audio SM-1 (something like 50 grand a pair!).


My idea is an all-Selenium 5-way in 4'w/3'd/3.5'h (yes, that's 42 cu. ft!) reflex cabinets. It would be an absolutely astonishing system for 6000+ cu. ft. listening rooms.

Selenium driver/horn compliment (for a pair)(prices ala Parts Express):

4x WPU1805 18" bass drivers = $565.80
2x 10MB1P-SLP 10" mid-bass drivers = $359.00
2x D405 mid compression drivers = $241.90
2x HC79-50 mid horns = $253.90
2x D205TI treble compression drivers = $97.70
2x HM17-25 treble horns = $18.90
2x ST320 super-tweeters = $88.90

Total driver cost: $1626.10 (not bad, eh?)

Crossover points : 200Hz, 600Hz, 2kHz, 8kHz
I'm thinking to avoid crossover design headaches by multi-amping and using a pair of Behringer DCX2496's per channel for crossover/time-alignment/EQ.

So, for around $2000 for a pair (OK, plus Behringers = around $3500 total) you'd have a system with extremely low distortion and 101dB/w efficiency over its entire passband (would hit 121dB with 128W--perhaps 1/4 of its power handling).

I've also got ideas for sand damping the cabinets and horns, but that's for another post.

Ok, who wants 7 for their surround system?
:)

Bill
 

Frank Grimes

Second Unit
Joined
Jul 19, 2002
Messages
260
Wow. That's a bit more complicated a setup than I was looking for (thinking 2 way with 1-4 midbass drivers, whatever is necessary to keep up with the horns), not to mention a bit more expensive.

Any idea how a pair of 12MB's would perform alongside the D405's in a 2 way? The 10's seem to have a fairly high Fs and I have a feeling that they would begin to rolloff a bit before I would like. Still, the 12's don't appear to be able to move much more air than the 10's would with the lesser Xmax. I'm kind of worried that, SPL wise, the horns would keep going quite further as the midbass drivers reach their limits.
 

Greg Monfort

Supporting Actor
Joined
May 30, 2000
Messages
884
>Anyone have experience with horns?
====
Si.
====
>Can some one at least give me a reason NOT to go with horns in my next install?
====
I can't if your room is large enough to accomodate their size while allowing you to sit far enough away from them to 'jell'. Even then, a matched set of Klipsch Heresys, or better still, a DIY design is small enough to give a strong 'taste' of cinema sound. Going either way is more expensive than most popular cone/dome kits, but cheaper than most consumer speakers, and have a level of performance second only to larger horn/ribbon/electrostat systems.

The best bang/buck WRT ~HE performance IMO is Adire's HE12.1, or ~equal. Install in a suitable cab for your app. (not necessarily a factory design), remove the bug screen, damp the basket, and toss some $$ into experimenting with different coatings, such as Dammar, on the HF diaphragm to find the optimum amount of damping for your app..

GM
 

Bill Fagal

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Jul 8, 2002
Messages
166
Any idea how a pair of 12MB's would perform alongside the D405's in a 2 way? The 10's seem to have a fairly high Fs and I have a feeling that they would begin to rolloff a bit before I would like. Still, the 12's don't appear to be able to move much more air than the 10's would with the lesser Xmax. I'm kind of worried that, SPL wise, the horns would keep going quite further as the midbass drivers reach their limits.
First off, the D405s are strictly midrange drivers, so you'll want something on top of them if you want to reproduce anything higher than 6kHz.

The 12MB has an up-tilting FR plot, leading me to think it's better suited for horn-loading than normal baffle mounting. That's why I specd the 10s, which look a bit flatter.

As to running out of steam, I guess that brings up the question of how loud you really want to go. Above 200Hz (where these are born to run) at 10% nominal power (30W x 2), a pair of 10MBs will be putting out a touch over 120dB, which is enough to vulcanize your pituitary gland at 3 paces and reverse a vasectomy at 10 paces. At this power level, distortion is still 30-40dB down, which I wouldn't characterize as out of steam ;)

But you gotta respect their bandwidth limitations and not try to run them too low, as they will quickly run out of X-max and distortion will spike.
 

Bill Fagal

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Jul 8, 2002
Messages
166
Frank is a decendant of pre-revolution French royalty who escaped into exile in the new world--check his profile.

;)
 

Frank Grimes

Second Unit
Joined
Jul 19, 2002
Messages
260
"The best bang/buck WRT ~HE performance IMO is Adire's HE12.1, or ~equal. "

I'll definitely look into it. I highly doubt anything I throw together will achieve the flat response that thing does...

"First off, the D405s are strictly midrange drivers, so you'll want something on top of them if you want to reproduce anything higher than 6kHz."

Thanks for pointing that out. Parts express had their frequency response up to 18khz, but that obviously doesn't mean they're ideal for playing that high. Any experience with Selenium horn drivers that are capable of playing high enough not to require a tweeter? Preferably in the same pricerange...

"As to running out of steam, I guess that brings up the question of how loud you really want to go. Above 200Hz (where these are born to run) at 10% nominal power (30W x 2), a pair of 10MBs will be putting out a touch over 120dB, which is enough to vulcanize your pituitary gland at 3 paces and reverse a vasectomy at 10 paces. At this power level, distortion is still 30-40dB down, which I wouldn't characterize as out of steam"

Good to know they'll hold their own. Not good to know that they're 'born' to run above 200hz. I really don't want to fool around with 3 way crossovers.

Do you happen to have a link to the frequency response on the 10's and 12's? Or even better a BL curve (I'm pushing my luck on that one)? I figured they probably have them on the company's website, but had no luck finding it.

Viva Jay Sherman! Viva le Quebec!
 

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