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Open Wheel 2003 (F1, CART, IRL) (1 Viewer)

CharlesD

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I think the new qualifying is a sham. Watch the Renaults duck into the pits early. Unless they manage to finish on the podium the only conclusion I'll have is that this new format is diminishing the sport, F1 should be about cut-throat competition not putting on a show IMO.

More Bernie Buys CART rumors

Gerry Forsythe who owns 24% of the shares in CART, thinks it could happen soon:

“It’s coming down to the line in the next two weeks,” said Forsythe. “Bernie doesn’t do things in half measures..."
 

Seth Paxton

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Well, even though you guys are all anti-IRL, which is now really just CART without the single-file road courses that I can see done better by F1 teams every two weeks, here is my winner prediction for tomorrow's race in order of most likely to me...and for the record these were my 3 favs before qualifying even, though I would have put Helio 2nd had he not won the pole (odds are way against him winning now, yet...)

1) Kenny Brack
2) Tony Kannan
3) Helio (wouldn't it be amazing for him to win from the pole and the first to win 3 in a row)


While the attendence is down and the high costs almost kept the field from being filled, Tony George worked the pits and has been working the PR, getting the parade put onto ESPN this year even. This year will be a tough year with Chevy being so far out of it, but next year as things start to settle down as far as money and teams go I think the IRL will be back on track. I still can't wait to see these teams hit Texas this year, OMG will that be crazy.

Indy had a huge crowd the Friday before pole day but pole day itself was dead. Idiots marveled at the FRI crowd and then pointed to the SUN crowd and said "See, failure". Too bad no one used common sense and said "75 and sunny, people come out. 50, cloudy, 20 mph winds and a 25 degree wind chill, no one wants to sit out here all day". Of course I did but it sucked (the cold I mean).

All I know is that for the first time in years Indy has clear sailing for race day, no "windows", no cold track to wipe out the field, and they have a shitload of top notch drivers and cars in the field. The product on the track will be as good as it has ever been it appears. I'm expecting a pretty clean race as well, maybe only 3 or 4 small spin wrecks.

It's sad to see all the Chevy drivers basically screwed though.


I hope IRL doesn't go to road courses, but if it comes to that I think they should keep separate points for those races and make it 2 sub-series and then an overall champ perhaps.

Of course oval points would mean a lot less, right? I know ovals are easy because Bruno Junqueira told us so after winning the pole last year. He didn't say quite as much after going out early and finishing 31st. Probably wondering how you drop 30 spots in an easy race. Don't worry Bruno, lots of drivers kill their gearbox. Go back to the road courses and lead the league if you can't hold a pole at Indy.

For the record, I think each type of racing presents unique challenges but that neither is exactly easier than the other. And its not all the machine at Indy because I watched Rahal and Fittipaldi both win 500's on pure skill moves (restart pass and touch with Lil Al). I've never seen a 500 where one car was the fastest all day and I've never seen a 500 where at least a few of the top drivers/cars didn't run into problems or a wreck.

It's insulting to F1 champ Mario to say that Indy is "easy" since it implies that something must be wrong with him for only winning 1.


BTW, I was watching ESPN Classic run the 86 race and I forgot that Mears had almost won that thing too. Add the microsecond finish of 82 and Mears came damn close to winning 6, 2 from the pole. I always thought Mears was the better Indy driver versus Foyt. Certainly the stats back it. The kid won a lot in a lot less time. 4 wins, 6 poles. He was bad ass and had a lot to do with Penske doing so well.
 

Peter Kim

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2003 Indianapolis 500 Results (dominant pro racing pedigree)/engine/country:

1. Gil de Ferran (CART)/Toyota/Brazil
2. Helio Castroneves (CART)/Toyota/Brazil
3. Tony Kanaan (CART)/Honda/Brazil
4. Tomas Scheckter (Formula Nissan/Formula 3/F1)/Toyota/South Africa
5. Tora Takagi (CART/F1)/Toyota/Japan
6. Alex Barron (CART/Toyota Atlantic)/Toyota/USA

Tony George created the IRL with the express interest of showcasing American drivers, American engines (keep operating costs down), and to focus on oval racing . Since CART went back to Indy in 2000 (either for the single ride or full-time IRL, e.g. Penske), there has not been an American or non-CART (road-racing) champion.

Well Tony, your vision has been impeccable.

Yeah, CART is dead. :rolleyes:;)

The IRL is dead. Long live the IRL...and watch as open-wheel, as dictated by George, wither in the shadow of NASCAR.
 

Michael St. Clair

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At times in the past you had to downshift and even brake just to keep the car on the track at a winning speed. Mario is right when he says it is easy, he is referring to the new status quo. High downforce, cars glued to the track, low rev limiter, never downshifting if you are leading, rarely lifting...flat out or damned close to it.

I FFWD'd through the race today on Tivo...IRL crusaders criticize CART for the lack of on-track lead changes...I don't think there have been very many on-track lead changes in the IRL this year. Today there was one....maybe...and that is on an oval! The German oval CART race a couple of weeks ago was more exciting than todays Indy 500 by any objective standard.

If anybody is an IRL fan, that is fine, I have not criticism of IRL fans. But is there an IRL fan that can look me in the eye and honestly say that open-wheel racing in the USA would not be healthier today if it were not for the creation of the IRL (and the initial 25-8 rule)? Total open-wheel race attendance is a fraction of what it was in 1995. Average open-wheel TV viewership is a fraction of what it was in 1995.

Open-wheel racing in the USA is absolutely destroyed. In USAC years and the CART years, tons of americans watched or listen to at least one open-wheel race a year, and now they don't. That's it, plain and simple.

Ask some random people seven days from now who won this year's Indy 500.

Bill France was the king, and Tony George was his pawn. Me, I'm just one of the millions on the losing side.
 

CharlesD

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I didn't see any of the race so I can't comment on the quality of the flat-foot 100% areo-limited "racing" but this sticks out:

...which is now really just CART without the single-file road courses...
If only it was that good. The IRL has not "become CART". The IRL has become a sorry wannabe pale imitation of what CART used to be before Tony George realized that the Indy 500 is just another race and came up with his ill conceived plan to put it back to the level where many people in central Indiana think it should be. Of course all he did was accelerate its decline.

Before the IRL CART was a world class racing series, one which a F1 World Champion would consider driving in while still having a viable F1 career. Now both CART and the IRL are second rate series with mostly second rate drivers.

The IRL has Toyota and Honda. Honda is a company that actually goes racing to improve its technology and engineering not just for the marketing. But the IRL is the only series where they don't bother to build their own engines, instead re-badging Ilmores. How very GM of them. But of course there is nothing that Honda can learn from making an IRL-spec motor.

The IRL has done nothing to promote All-American Short-Track Heros all it has done is shown that any competent road racer (most of whom are non-Americans) can learn how to compete effectively on an oval in about half a day. American Open Wheel racing today is a complete joke, thanks largely to Tony George and his ego.
 

Peter Kim

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Seems like Robin Miller got material for his latest article from the last three posts in this thread. ;)

Robin Miller @ rpm.espn

Castroneves' streak ended but another one stayed alive: Five straight foreign Indy winners (an American hasn't won here since Eddie Cheever in 1998 and he grew up in Italy and Formula One) and seven of the last nine.

Three former CART teams -- Penske, Ganassi and Andretti-Green -- dominated practice, qualifying and the race. Think Ron Hemelgarn, John Menard, John Barnes, Billy Boat and Robbie Buhl still like the IRL's direction?
I didn't see the entire race...was his highness, the protected AJ Foyt IV really that bad as many of the drivers and journalists stated? Sad to hear this, and see yet another of Ms. Fisher's ongoing PR campaign lock out infinitely more qualified drivers like Max Papis.
 

Michael St. Clair

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Papis just (yesterday) had a press release that he is driving in the ASCAR (struggling british NASCAR clone) series.

The IRL party line from Baghdad Bob (aka Fred Nation) is that the Enron scandal, the Lakers losing, Conseco stock, SARS, the end of Friends and chuckholes on Georgetown Road are responsible for the lack of cars in Gasoline Alley.
 

Peter Kim

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Top 3 of F1 separated by 2 points (Schuey/72, Montoya/71, Rikkonen/70). Alonso wins Hungaroring, youngest F1 winner ever.

de Ferran retiring at the end of the year. Hornish drives for Penske starting next year.

Open wheel got a lot more interesting this year. Especially for F1...after a disasterous last year.
 

CharlesD

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Argh I missed the Hungary GP. I was on vacation and my TiVo managed to record 2 1/5 hours of black screen instead of the race. As a long time Ferrari fan I'm very dissapointed (Barichello's wheel came off & m.Schu was lapped! :eek: ), but as a F1 fan I'm happy to see Alonso win and to see a close points battle with 3 races left in the season.
 

Keith Mickunas

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One has to wonder when Ferrari will get some new tires, clearly their's aren't working well at all. I'm really happy to see Renault coming along so nicely. That makes four teams that will be competitive next year, and Jaguar is looking better and better. I just hope that next year they drop some of the stupid rule changes. The 2 tires rule had to much of an affect on some of the races earlier in the year.
 

Peter Kim

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Indeed, the tire situation in F1 is remarkable. I think the top 7 spots at Hungaroring went to Michelin-clad cars. Used to be a short while ago, Bridgestone whooped Goodyear's ass. Competitive (im)balance at play here again, to the benefit of the sport and spectators.

What's astonishing is that Honda still does so poorly with BAR, in stark contrast to their glory days with Senna and Prost.

If Villenueve still gets $20 mil next year, it'll only further render the team owners as idiots and hypocrites.
 

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