Onkyo tx-rz50 with Dirac sounds flat and lifeless (1 Viewer)

[Cdubb]

Hi all,

I've been through a whole tornado of all that is Dirac lately. I can't figure out how to get my system to sound as good as my previous ultra budget receiver. The Denon S760H with Audyssey. After running Dirac and listening to a few movies the bass/impact is almost non existent. I can only get a bit if I turn my sub gain all the way up to -4 or more. The rest of my system sounds lifeless and there isn't really any color to it. Very flat sounding...

I have played with my crossover and set up my speaker levels to all match 75dB. I applied a Harmon +10dB bass target curve and still not sounding good...anyone have some suggestions? I will post my Dirac live measurements to show the speaker measurement and correction.

My Setup:
Speaker Configuration: 5.1.2
Speakers:

• L&R (SVS Ultra Towers)
• Center (SVS Ultra)
• Surrounds (2x SVS Ultra Surrounds)
• Height speakers (Unknown, moved into a house with them recessed into the ceiling and just thought I'd use em for Atmos Config)

Sub - SVS PC 2000 Pro
AVR: Onkyo TX-RZ50
Room EQ Dirac Live latest version 3.3.3
System OS: macOS Monterey
Measurement Mic: UMIK-1


Thanks!

 

[JohnRice]

You're running all the speakers full range? It appears that way. I suggest not doing that. For one thing, it can cause a lot of phase cancellation in the bass range.

Have you listened with no room correction, just to see how it compares?

Where is the sub located?

 

[Cdubb]

Thanks for the reply, I'm not running at full range. I set my fronts, center to 40Hz and surrounds to 60Hz. For the heights I put them at 120Hz. The images attached are the Dirac measurements which I believe uses full band test tones to determine the correction.

I did try with and without correction. I don't think I can tell much of a difference. I'm starting to think the might be something with EQ the AVRs are applying...I don't know though. I tried Dynamic EQ with Audyessy and the the Onkyo version of EQ. When I'm using the Onkyo + Dirac Live the sub hardly engages unless I turn the gain up very high like 90%. With the Denon + Audyssey I leave my sub gain at 50%. It seems like there is just either no low freq sounds with Onkyo and Dirac or they don't come in until I increase the dB to uncomfortable levels. Like 85-90dB. Even then though there is still hardly anything from what I can hear. I thought setting crossovers to 40Hz might give help more low freq reproduction from my other front channel. The SVS ultra towers have 2x 8' subs..

Sub is located to the right of my front right speaker.

 

[Josh Dial]

In my opinion your problem is setting your crossovers too low.

I have the SVS Ultra Towers as well as the Ultra Centre (I use 4x SVS Prima Towers for my rears and surrounds, and 4x SVS Prime Elevations for my height speakers), so my front stage is exactly the same as yours (though I have 2x SVS SB-16 Ultra subwoofers).

I suggest you try running your fronts, centre, and surrounds at 80 Hz crossover. Keep your heights at 120. Remove your room curve for now. That should get you closer to where you want.

You also have a few nulls that are likely caused by your room (might you have a photo?). Moving your sub might help that. Even an "old school" subwoofer location trick might suffice (i.e. place your sub at your main listening position, put on some music with good bass, and then walk around the room slowly until you find a spot where the bass sounds the best for you--that's where you put your sub, if possible).

 

[JohnRice]

I also suggest raising the crossover for the front three. 70-80Hz. I don't know if that's a source of the problem, though. It could be.

 

[John Dirk]

I also noted the crossover levels and would suggest fronts, center to 60Hz and surrounds to 80Hz. I run my height speakers at 90Hz but that's not the source of your issues and, with unknown speakers, it's probably a good idea keeping them at 120.

Ultimately, however, I agree with your suspicion that this has something to do with EQ. My Marantz AV7702mkii sounds notably impotent without Dynamic EQ engaged, regardless of other settings. Does the Onkyo have something comparable to Audyssey Dynamic EQ?

 

[JohnRice]

Ultimately, however, I agree with your suspicion that this has something to do with EQ. My Marantz AV7702mkii sounds notably impotent without Dynamic EQ engaged, regardless of other settings. Does the Onkyo have something comparable to Audyssey Dynamic EQ?

I don't know what the deal is, but my system sounds anything but impotent or lifeless without any additional processing. What does the Dynamic EQ do? FWIW, I do NOT use Audyssey, using a Marantz AV7703. I manually did EQ using REW.

 

[John Dirk]

I don't know what the deal is, but my system sounds anything but impotent or lifeless without any additional processing. What does the Dynamic EQ do? FWIW, I do NOT use Audyssey, using a Marantz AV7703. I manually did EQ using REW.

You know how D&M provides clear, detailed explanations of such things, right? This is what the manual says but there's obviously more going on. I need to get around to a good manual calibration like you did but how does REW help in setting speaker EQ points?

Audyssey Dynamic EQ®​

Dynamic EQ solves the problem of deteriorating sound quality as volume is decreased by taking into account human perception and room acoustics.
Audyssey Dynamic EQ® works in tandem with Audyssey MultEQ® XT32 to provide well-balanced sound for every listener at any volume level.

 

[Josh Dial]

I also noted the crossover levels and would suggest fronts, center to 60Hz and surrounds to 80Hz. I run my height speakers at 90Hz but that's not the source of your issues and, with unknown speakers, it's probably a good idea keeping them at 120.

I think 60Hz and 80Hz is ultimately where the original poster John (three Johns in one thread!) will land, but for trying to detect the problem, I think going with 80Hz all around ground is best.

Just going from the posted curves (and I'm nowhere near an expert in interpreting audio curves), I don't like the sharp drop at 20 and 30. Also, is the vertical access the volume in some sort of boosted decibels? Why doesn't DIRAC just use the actual playback volume (e.g. 75 dB)?

Anyway, the target curve itself looks wrong to me. The target sub curve is less-wrong, but still wrong.

I think the crossovers and Harmon curve is playing havoc here.

 

[Cdubb]

Hello everyone,

I wanted to update here and thank everyone for the input. My problem turned out to be the sub level in the volume calibration of Dirac. This resulted in setting my sub to -12dB in the Volume adjustment of the onkyo and I believe screwing the rest of the speaker correction up entirely, which was where the lifeless perception was coming from something was going wonky. Even if I adjusted the Sub to say +4dB from -12 that didn't change anything that was perceivable. I went back and tuned my sub to be at a much lower volume in the volume cal step of Dirac and went through the speaker room correction again and it sounds much much more in line with what you'd typically expect. (better than no speaker room correction) Still some additional tweaking to be done though as I look through your replies. Thanks again everyone!

 

[Josh Dial]

Hello everyone,

I wanted to update here and thank everyone for the input. My problem turned out to be the sub level in the volume calibration of Dirac. This resulted in setting my sub to -12dB in the Volume adjustment of the onkyo and I believe screwing the rest of the speaker correction up entirely, which was where the lifeless perception was coming from something was going wonky. Even if I adjusted the Sub to say +4dB from -12 that didn't change anything that was perceivable. I went back and tuned my sub to be at a much lower volume in the volume cal step of Dirac and went through the speaker room correction again and it sounds much much more in line with what you'd typically expect. (better than no speaker room correction) Still some additional tweaking to be done though as I look through your replies. Thanks again everyone!

Thanks for the update, John. I'm glad you've got the sound more in line with your expectations. Do you have the post-fix curves?

 

[JohnRice]

I need to get around to a good manual calibration like you did but how does REW help in setting speaker EQ points?

I think that warrants a dedicated thread, because it's not a short answer. Suffice it to say, the results can knock you on your ass. Of course, the dual SB-16 Ultras help.