Once Upon a Time in Hollywood (2019) (1 Viewer)

[Winston T. Boogie]

Sure, there's still menace. Even if Tate never appears on screen, we know what's going to happen. We don't need to see her to feel dread about where the Manson story line will go.

The tension would be just as thick if the movie dropped the Tate scenes and just kept those with Pussycat and the other Mansonites.

Of course, anyone who sees the movie without foreknowledge of real events will likely feel none of this anxiousness because they don't know real-life Sharon was slaughtered. They probably wonder why the movie spends so much time with this lady who has little connection to the lead characters!

I do sort of feel that you are missing something huge that is right in front of you, Colin. Not sure why but you are not alone in missing it. I'm going to spoiler these next comments because this is a new film and I think we are into territory that might give stuff away...

Spoiler: SPOILER

So, are you missing that the picture is a fairy tale, a wish, a what if? It is not called "Once Upon a Time..." by accident. The entire fairy tale aspect is built around the Tate character. It is her life that is the fairy tale, it is because she is in the picture that the ending is a fairy tale ending. These two drunks that were basically going nowhere fast, Cliff and Rick, end up saving the princess, Tate. This can't happen if Tate is not in the film. The story is not a fairy tale if she is not in it. Rick and Cliff's story is not a fairy tale. They are on their way down. Rick's hope is that he gets to meet the princess, Tate, and she and Polanski help him/offer him work in something he sees as really good because they are hot and on their way up. He finally gets to meet her at the end because he and Cliff killed the people we know in real life would have killed her. And typical of Tarantino this is his big revenge moment in the film because we get the payoff of seeing the pieces of garbage that in real life slaughtered Tate, get brutally murdered by Cliff and Rick. Tarantino entirely builds the finale of the film around Tate being in it. He turns it into this almost documentary day and time thing leading up to the murder of Tate and her friends to the point where when the killers get out of the car and start walking up the street to kill someone it appears it will be Tate and her friends. You would not get the sense of relief and the hilarious release of seeing the Manson family members killed without having Tate in the picture. Also no Tate means where is Rick's payoff at the end and the potential that actually getting to meet Tate might mean more and better work for him. It is playing on that "fairy tale" idea that one little bit of fate can forever change your life and others.

Basically, saying just cut Tate out of the film is saying Tarantino should have made a totally different picture. It's honestly a bizarre criticism of the film.

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

I'm genuinely puzzled by the love for all that "Lancer" stuff or the shots of Dalton in "Great Escape" or the like. These are self-indulgent to an extreme!

I will say this, and again this is based on just a single viewing, the one bit in the picture I felt like could be cut and not really missed was the imaginary clip of Rick playing the McQueen role in The Great Escape. That was the only bit that really, to me anyway, felt unnecessary. It was also a little too goofy and distracting and I think sort of did not fit with everything else.

Other than that, I think Quentin did a phenomenal job putting all the pieces together here.

I enjoyed the Lancer section and it showed where Rick's life was really at.

 

[Colin Jacobson]

I do sort of feel that you are missing something huge that is right in front of you, Colin. Not sure why but you are not alone in missing it. I'm going to spoiler these next comments because this is a new film and I think we are into territory that might give stuff away...

Spoiler: SPOILER

So, are you missing that the picture is a fairy tale, a wish, a what if? It is not called "Once Upon a Time..." by accident. The entire fairy tale aspect is built around the Tate character. It is her life that is the fairy tale, it is because she is in the picture that the ending is a fairy tale ending. These two drunks that were basically going nowhere fast, Cliff and Rick, end up saving the princess, Tate. This can't happen if Tate is not in the film. The story is not a fairy tale if she is not in it. Rick and Cliff's story is not a fairy tale. They are on their way down. Rick's hope is that he gets to meet the princess, Tate, and she and Polanski help him/offer him work in something he sees as really good because they are hot and on their way up. He finally gets to meet her at the end because he and Cliff killed the people we know in real life would have killed her. And typical of Tarantino this is his big revenge moment in the film because we get the payoff of seeing the pieces of garbage that in real life slaughtered Tate, get brutally murdered by Cliff and Rick. Tarantino entirely builds the finale of the film around Tate being in it. He turns it into this almost documentary day and time thing leading up to the murder of Tate and her friends to the point where when the killers get out of the car and start walking up the street to kill someone it appears it will be Tate and her friends. You would not get the sense of relief and the hilarious release of seeing the Manson family members killed without having Tate in the picture. Also no Tate means where is Rick's payoff at the end and the potential that actually getting to meet Tate might mean more and better work for him. It is playing on that "fairy tale" idea that one little bit of fate can forever change your life and others.

Basically, saying just cut Tate out of the film is saying Tarantino should have made a totally different picture. It's honestly a bizarre criticism of the film.

I'm not saying Tate should be cut - I'm saying she could be cut.

As for your spoilerized claims:

Spoiler

If we're to view "Once" as a fairytale with Tate as the princess, QT does a crappy job of making her that character. He focuses on her too little for her to qualify as that kind of Snow White/Sleeping Beauty character.

If Tate is supposed to be the fairytale princess at the center, she needs to have more involvement in the story. As it stands, she's superfluous most of the time...

 

[MartinP.]

I will say this, and again this is based on just a single viewing, the one bit in the picture I felt like could be cut and not really missed was the imaginary clip of Rick playing the McQueen role in The Great Escape. That was the only bit that really, to me anyway, felt unnecessary. It was also a little too goofy and distracting and I think sort of did not fit with everything else.

Incidentally, I previously mentioned that this scene was not in the Cannes screening of the film.

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

Incidentally, I previously mentioned that this scene was not in the Cannes screening of the film.

I do recall you saying that. It's an interesting point and I can see why that moment was cut, at first anyway. It sort of makes no sense. Who is supposed to be imagining Rick in The Great Escape? Rick? Seems unlikely he says he was never up for the part. James Stacey, the guy that asks him if he was up for the part? I don't think that makes sense either. Why would he envision Rick playing the McQueen part? It seems like it is just a gag for the audience that they have this clip where they stick Rick's head on McQueen's body. It looks a bit ridiculous and just comes across, to me, as way too goofy.

 

[Robert Crawford]

I do recall you saying that. It's an interesting point and I can see why that moment was cut, at first anyway. It sort of makes no sense. Who is supposed to be imagining Rick in The Great Escape? Rick? Seems unlikely he says he was never up for the part. James Stacey, the guy that asks him if he was up for the part? I don't think that makes sense either. Why would he envision Rick playing the McQueen part? It seems like it is just a gag for the audience that they have this clip where they stick Rick's head on McQueen's body. It looks a bit ridiculous and just comes across, to me, as way too goofy.

Not to me, I loved that film sequence as I totally enjoyed it and even more so the second time I watched it.

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

I'm not saying Tate should be cut - I'm saying she could be cut.

Cut out everything Sharon Tate and maybe there’s an interesting movie in there.

This bit above is actually Josh, commenting but I had to go back to see who said that. I was under the impression people were suggesting she be cut out of the film. You actually responded...

I agree you could easily lose most - if not all - of her scenes and the movie would be no worse for it...

So, I was a bit confused as to where you really stand on her in the film.

It also seemed you were going to watch the film a second time, or at least were considering it. I was just trying to point you to stuff to look at and consider. You seem pretty set in your idea that she serves just a single purpose in the story though and I am not trying to convince you to like the film or change your mind.

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

Not to me, I loved that film sequence as I totally enjoyed it and even more so the second time I watched it.

Do you think Rick or James is supposed to be imagining that? I have only seen the film once and that was a couple weeks ago so I need to watch it again.

 

[Colin Jacobson]

This bit above is actually Josh, commenting but I had to go back to see who said that. I was under the impression people were suggesting she be cut out of the film. You actually responded...



So, I was a bit confused as to where you really stand on her in the film.

It also seemed you were going to watch the film a second time, or at least were considering it. I was just trying to point you to stuff to look at and consider. You seem pretty set in your idea that she serves just a single purpose in the story though and I am not trying to convince you to like the film or change your mind.

I'll see it again when it hits Blu-ray, as I'll review it for my site.

Not interested in a 2nd theatrical screening...

 

[Colin Jacobson]

Do you think Rick or James is supposed to be imagining that? I have only seen the film once and that was a couple weeks ago so I need to watch it again.

What??? Rick James is in the movie???

 

[TravisR]

Do you think Rick or James is supposed to be imagining that? I have only seen the film once and that was a couple weeks ago so I need to watch it again.

I took it as Rick was hired and shot some scenes but was quickly fired in favor of Steve McQueen. That's why he's uncomfortable talking about it and he's lying when he says how he never met with John Sturges and that "the three Georges" were up for it, etc.

 

[Jeffrey D]

I don’t know if anyone else has the same feeling about the Great Escape scene, but my gut reaction to it was Quentin was paying tribute to a film he has an appreciation for.

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

What??? Rick James is in the movie???

Rick James does Hitchcock style cameos in all Tarantino's films. Or perhaps it's Tarantino dressed as Rick James...

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

I took it as Rick was hired and shot some scenes but was quickly fired in favor of Steve McQueen. That's why he's uncomfortable talking about it and he's lying when he says how he never met with John Sturges and that "the three Georges" were up for it, etc.

Which would make it Rick's memory then, I just had the impression he had never been considered as he said. I need to see it again anyway. Plus I did not stay for the credits when I went and apparently there is a scene or scenes during the credits I missed. I guess officially that makes my viewing incomplete.

 

[TravisR]

Which would make it Rick's memory then, I just had the impression he had never been considered as he said. I need to see it again anyway. Plus I did not stay for the credits when I went and apparently there is a scene or scenes during the credits I missed. I guess officially that makes my viewing incomplete.

It's

Spoiler

Rick doing a commercial for Red Apple cigarettes (the brand that appears in most Tarantino movies).

It's fun but doesn't add to the narrative.

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

It's

Spoiler

Rick doing a commercial for Red Apple cigarettes (the brand that appears in most Tarantino movies).

It's fun but doesn't add to the narrative.

Ah, thank you for that information. I was wondering if there was some other item that revealed or hinted at something else.

 

[Bryan^H]

Quentin on the Bruce Lee controversy, Andy more backstory about Cliff Booth.

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

Quentin on the Bruce Lee controversy, Andy more backstory about Cliff Booth.

His only issue here is he misquotes Linda Lee, she actually never said that and did not write that. She mentions a reporter making that comment in her book and it is the reporter saying that not Bruce. So, while he has a point on the "fiction" aspect of this and having the fictional Cliff fight Lee would be the same as Dracula fighting Lee...he digs a bit of a deeper hole for himself with Lee's daughter because he says something not true about her mom.

Not sure Lee's daughter cares much about the outcome of the Cliff vs. Bruce fight, I think she did not like that Tarantino portrays him as bragging about being able to take Ali.

 

[JohnMor]

Kareem has weighed in on his friend’s depiction.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/n...iend-tarantinos-movie-disrespects-him-1232544

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

Personally, I loved the Cliff vs. Bruce sequence in the picture. I thought it was fun and really well done but I mean, I also just saw it as fiction. I think almost any time real people are portrayed in a film people who knew the real people will have comments or complaints. I did not take that sequence as Tarantino trying to show us something "true" about Lee, I took it as just another one of Tarantino's fantasies.