Ok, for anyone who STILL can't see or believe in Edge enhancement...

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Dave Mack, Mar 23, 2002.

  1. Dave Mack

    Dave Mack Producer

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    Ok, EASIEST way to prove this.
    Get your hands on or go to someone's home who has a DVD player with a ZOOM feature. I have the JVC-70 which can zoom to 128x...
    pop in ANY disc with alleged BAD EE. "Tomstone", "Die Hard 3" etc...
    I had "Jay and Silent Bob..." at the time.
    Go to ANY scene where there is a dark object contrasted against a light background, say guy with hat in Tombstone against sky...
    Now, pause and zoom!!!! I zoomed to 16x.
    Now these "halos" if they were truly an artifact of the TV, comb filter, line doubler, player etc.... would stay the same size (about an 1/8 of an inch on my 55" in a long shot, 1/4 inch in closeup...) even when the pic. is zoomed.
    But, alas, these "halos" increase in size in DIRECT proportion to the image they are around!!!
    So at 16x, Silent Bob literally had a 2 inch Forcefield.
    At 32x zoom, LOOKOUT!
    Now, you could say, "Hey dude, that could just be the PLAYER!"
    So.... Pop in a disc considered to have little or NO alleged EE, I used Titanic.
    At 36 minutes in, there is a shot of Leo against sky, I paused and zommed away, and guess what? NO force field! NOTHING!!!!! Just Leo. I zoomed to 64x. NADA! Just a HUGE Leo! (eek...) [​IMG]
    Anyone still doubting the existance of EE, try this little experiment.
    What a Horrible process! I have a 55" and it now drives me CRAZY. I don't know HOW people with bigger sets or projectors deal....!
    Peace, Y'all!!!!!
    Dave Mack
     
  2. Michael Reuben

    Michael Reuben Studio Mogul

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  3. Dave Mack

    Dave Mack Producer

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    Actually, on some sets like the mitsubishis, there are parameters for edge enhancement in the service menus which can be acsessed thru an I2C fix, (reprogramming of eeprom values, etc...) so if you go to say the Mits. forum on Hometheatre spot, there are TONS of posts re "haloing", set vs. player vs. transfer etc...
    Dunno about other sets, but some people there were trying to deduce transfer halo vs. TV etc....
    So, yeah there has been debate about this.
    Also, the point of my post was that there are STILL loads of people who think this doesn't exist at all.
    Using my experiment, it is CLEAR that this does exist.
    My point re: sets was that some people think that these "halos" can be caused by the set, sharpness levels, SVM, etc...
    I'm just trying to show people a very CLEAR way to observe this phenomenon. Since I believe by now that it's pretty much understood that there is a process known as EE,
    and if people deny this, I ask them whst the heck do they think those lines are???? And if they are "accidental" how can they not be noticed and corrected. There is NONE on "Titanic", virtually none on The new Remastered "The Shining" and LOADS on the new remastered "2001".
    "Tombstone"? Don't get me started.
    D
     
  4. CaptDS9E

    CaptDS9E Cinematographer

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    So you have to zoom in 16x to see this? LOL
     
  5. Matt DeVillier

    Matt DeVillier Supporting Actor

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    Joey,

    the point is that if you have it projected onto a large enough screen, it looks the same as zooming on a small screen. Dave was pointing out an easy way for those of us not fortunate enough to have a projection system to see what all the fuss is about first hand
     
  6. Eric S M

    Eric S M Agent

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    But aren't we talking about the difference between a 'digital' zoom that the DVD player performs versus the optical projection of a larger image?

    IMO, the act of digitally zooming the image using the DVD player's zoom function is bound to introduce errors that would not be present in the optical projection.

    Doesn't seem like an apples-to-apples comparison.

    Eric
     
  7. Ryan L B

    Ryan L B Supporting Actor

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    people complained to me that Citizen Kane had no such edge enhancment, so zoom in at certin points in the movie and if there are little blue spots on the sides, it is right.
     
  8. Dave Mack

    Dave Mack Producer

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    with all due respect, then there would be a "forcefield" around Leo's head in titanic too, and there is NOTHING.
    These "halos" arent subtle. I mean, they are ENORMOUS! I wish I could show you what I am referring to.
    I'm sure on a 27" or even 36" 4x3 tv they might be subtle but on my 55" 16x9, an anamorphic disc with bad EE looks like the Flinstones! You know how the characters have those thick black lines around them? Same thing practically.
    Starship Troopers zoomed..? Awesome.
    Die Hard 3..? ACK!
    Blade zoomed...? Sweet.
    T2 Ultimate edition..? ACK!!!
    If you doubt this, like I said, get your hands on a player with Zoom.
    Peace! D
     
  9. Ricardo C

    Ricardo C Producer

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    So you know the EE by-products are there. Neat. So some people either don't notice them or aren't bothered by them. Why are you aggravating yourself by looking for the problem above and beyond the call of duty?

    And if some people don't notice it, why try to get them to be bothered by it?? Most people tell me of how awful the EE in TPM is, but I just don't see it. Why should I zoom it all to hell just so I CAN be bugged by a flaw my eyes don't perceive?
     
  10. Steve Felix

    Steve Felix Supporting Actor

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    I think it's good to be aware of quality issues. Why are those of us without 16:9 TV's worried about anamorphic enhancement?
     
  11. Ricardo C

    Ricardo C Producer

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    It's great to be aware. Bashing people over the head till they see ringing within ringing, not so much.

    I'm not trying to imply that knowing what you're dealing with is bad. Just... Why magnify it?
     
  12. Jeff Whitford

    Jeff Whitford Screenwriter

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    Having been a photographer I sometimes wonder if some people see natural halos from back lighting as Edge enhancement. I look at the examples that people provide and thats what alot of them look like to me.
     
  13. Dave Mack

    Dave Mack Producer

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    Alright, SHEESH! I'm SORRY!
    I shouldn't have said anything!
    It's just that we as consumers who are spending MAJOR coin on High End equipment should hope for some software to watch on it that is as Reference quality as possible.
    And it's a bit ironic since, say Columbia DVD is the same company that markets Sony 57 " 16x9 sets...
    my point is if the EE is added and not inherently in the image, we should be JUST as mad as if someone altered the AOR.
    If people can't see the flaws and purposely Don't WANT to, god bless them, but why would they want to read this post or be interested in Home Theatre enough to bother reading forums such as this???
    Just my 2 cents.
    D
     
  14. Ricardo C

    Ricardo C Producer

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  15. Francois Caron

    Francois Caron Cinematographer

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    I'm still of the opinion that the edge enhancement is actually a bug in the encoding software used by the studios. Detecting one of these defective transfers is reasonably easy especially in a 2.35 aspect ratio transfer. Observe the point where the top black bar meets the image. On the image side, you'll see a halo running across the entire width of the screen. That's a sure sign the rest of the image will also be infested by edge enhancement.

    I have serious doubts this is edge enhancement is intentional. But the fact the studios are taking a very, very long time to correct this annoying problem is not reassuring.
     
  16. GlennH

    GlennH Cinematographer

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  17. RobertR

    RobertR Lead Actor

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  18. Mark_Wilson

    Mark_Wilson Screenwriter

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    Bjoern, great job on that TMP site. Does the Japanese NTSC DVD of TPM have the same EE problem the R1 disc does?
     
  19. Josh_Hill

    Josh_Hill Screenwriter

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    I still do not believe in edge enhancement. I have seen this alleged EE, but I dont believe it is because of the DVD. I have seen EE in theaters, so it has nothing to do with DVD and Im not losing any sleep over it.
     
  20. Patrick McCart

    Patrick McCart Lead Actor

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    Any review that mentions anything about "close inspection" or zooming I immediately skip. Sure, transfers like The Sound Of Music look awful in normal range, but why rate transfers from close-up inspection?

    If you can't see it in normal viewing, why would it be bad?

    I also think it's odd that the only examples of edge enhancement on Roy's site are extreme blowups. If there really was something to prove, why not show the image actual-size?

    Also, viewing a digital video on a 9' foot screen will make the image push the limits.
     

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