Oh My God.....screen Burn!!!!!!!

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by LaMarcus, Jan 6, 2003.

  1. LaMarcus

    LaMarcus Screenwriter

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    Oh my lord have mercy on me. My once beautiful tv set is now ruined. My feelings are so hurt.[​IMG]
    I thought I was so careful, but not careful enough. I have my set calibrated with V.E. Dvd's looked great. Now when ever I watch something that is in snow for example ice age. I see this yellowish bar in the middle of screen.[​IMG]
    Now, I do play video games alot, and I was worried about static images in the game. But thats not what got me....
    It was the damn cable guide menu. I never thought I had it up there that long. But I guess I did. And when I watch cable I use one of the factory settings, and I'm sure the contrast is way too high.
    Now my BIG problem is, what do I have to do to fix it? I fear I'll have to buy all new guns. If they are $400 a piece, that sounds like a new tv to me. [​IMG]
    Does any body know what I need to do? [​IMG]
    And don't let this happen to you!!!!![​IMG]
     
  2. ManW_TheUncool

    ManW_TheUncool Producer

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    Maybe you can convince the TV maker to fix it for you or help subsidize the cost.

    They say they don't cover image burn, but maybe you can win the argument based on what's reasonable and what's not. IF you really did not leave the cable guide menu on for extended time (or whatever the TV maker says is unacceptable), then you might have a sound argument, especially if they do not warn you to turn the contrast down.

    Of course, you won't have proof about your usage, but that might not be necessarily if you complain enough. Certainly, we should not simply let them off the hook too easily when we've done our best to prevent burn-in.

    That's what I would do, if it happened to me--not that I would intentionally put myself in that situation.

    _Man_
     
  3. Neil Joseph

    Neil Joseph Lead Actor

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    LaMarcus, I am sorry to hear this and this raises a real concern if something like this causes burn in, especially with out of the box settings. I would think that enough pressure in the right place will get you results, usually someone at the top of the company. I sure would pursue that, even if I were looking at another TV in the near future.

    This only goes to show just how important calibration is (even AVIA, Video Essentials or other disks) and how deadly these damned static menus, TV station logos and other such screen images can be.

    Out of curiousity, how old is the TV and is it still under warranty?

    Good luck.
     
  4. JohnnyG

    JohnnyG Screenwriter

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    Silly question perhaps, but are you sure it's burn-in? There is a part of the guide that has a (probably blue) bar in that exact part of the screen, right?

    Otherwise, it might just be something that's fallen on the blue lens (or something like that). Yellow is red+green.
     
  5. JohnnyG

    JohnnyG Screenwriter

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    Silly question perhaps, but are you sure it's burn-in? There is a part of the guide that has a (probably blue) bar in that exact part of the screen, right?

    Otherwise, it might just be something that's fallen on the blue lens (or something like that). Yellow is red+green.
     
  6. Brae

    Brae Supporting Actor

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    Folks, don't get me wrong and I mean this in the most sincere and honest way, but almost every RPTV manufacturer places an ambiguous disclaimer regarding uneven phosphor wear, better known as screen burn.

    They do this, because they are already aware of the situation which are born in a technological limitation (or rather a phosphor limitation). I am not advocating what manufacturers are doing, in fact I will denounce them until the day I die.

    It took less than nine (9) months for me to discover that my 65" Mitsubishi Diamond RPTV had significant screen burn. This day of reckoning was actually on 9/11/01. I had started my first day of vacation when my boss called me that morning after the first plane crash into the WTC.

    As I watched in horror the second plane hit I noticed in the clear blue sky on my RPTV the line structure that was the DISH logo from its channel guide. It took another week for me to find the time to quickly learn to what degree the uneveness was in-effect on the three CRTs (tubes). The green and blue tubes exhibited wear but the red did not (from what I could discern).

    From the get-go, I followed the advice from fellow Mitsubishi fanatics on HomeTheaterSpot and reduce the brightness and contrast (more contrast than brightness) to about 1/3 of full-scale. What I did not know then was that the video board was suspect (along with those in the Platinum and Platinum Plus series of Mits RPTV) had a knack for resetting the user-defined setting back to factory default.

    Sure, one can buy the service manual, dig up the service menu entry code, and alter the 'default' values, but this has to be done for each input. And, this does not keep the condition at bay. Although the rate of wear is a lot lower (not a lot of noticeable new line structure, some but not a lot), I have about 3,000 hours on the unit.

    Does this meet the manufacturer's definition of a static image? Sure does as it is not a moving picture. Do they do a good job at educating and warning the consumers? Heck no! And the retailers are just as much to blame for not warning consumers either (out of fear of lost sales). But what bothers me is that some RPTV's are leaving the factory in torch mode and the end user pays for the end result: screen burn.

    Does this mean I hate CRT-based display devices? Of course not. In fact, I have a re-tubed NEC XG135LC going into a dedicated (read that light-controlled room) theater where I can totally control how hard the CRTs are driven and can offset the light hitting my eyes with a high-gain torus screen.

    A properly working and calibrated unit will last for years, and thousands of hours, but this can only be accomplished with a properly working product and a well-educated customer/owner in having the properly working unit calibrated by a professional. That's not as easy as it sounds.
     
  7. Patrick Sun

    Patrick Sun Moderator
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    On my new RPTV, there was a piece of paper attached to the front side of the RPTV set warning me of the dangers of burn-in, so I guess RPTV makers are trying to alert their customers (but there's always the chance that the deliverers might take the warning off when they deliver the set into the house).
     
  8. Dave H

    Dave H Producer

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    Just curious.

    If one were to buy a RPTV from, say Best Buy, and bought the entended warranty, would burn-in be covered?
     
  9. Brae

    Brae Supporting Actor

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    Patrick, I did not mean to suggest that the manufacturers didn't do anything in terms of warning the consumers, but rather their definition of static imaging should be called into question when 'channel guides' start to burn the phosphor over an extended period of time.
    If I spend 10-seconds scrolling through the channel guide I would not call this a static image, but those manufacturers, to absolve themselves, would most certainly consider it a static image. My problem isn't in their taking this position (which they have taken), but rather not CLEARLY stating their position on channel guides in the first place.
    If one spends 10-seconds out of every viewed hour on the channel guide, which has portions of static line structure, this in 3,000 hours of viewing (which I have surpassed) represents the equivalent of a static image being present for 30,000 seconds, or +8 hours. This may not seem significant, but I am willing to bet some channel surfers are spending a lot more than 10-seconds/hour doing this.
    Now, imagine the case for someone watching commercial television that takes a channel-guide break while waiting out those commercials. This can represent 30-120 seconds 4-8 times per hour! Now imagine this worse case scenario. Of course the consumer thinks as long as they stay off the ticker-tape channels (which this, console gaming, and PC imagery are the ONLY thing Mitsubishi warned me of in the manual, on the sticker on the screen, etc.) and you can see where this can lead.
    Four 30-second instances on the channel guide over the course of 3,000 hours of viewing now adds up to a monstrous 100-hours of equivalent static activity on the CRTs. Worse yet, the small the CRTs the greater the tendency can be for uneven phosphor wear (screen burn) as generating a light output requires CRTs to be driven harder the smaller the CRTs are. This is only one of the luxuries of a 9" CRT-equipped RPTV.
    Next, I have to call into question the very nature of their business practices. The manufacturers ship their beasties we all loved at one time in a torch-mode condition. How else are you going to keep those buyers happy until after the return period has lapsed? Give the a nice bright picture with plenty of contrast for all and add to it the channel guide condition and its a problem in the making that they completely ignore until you learn the bad news.
    Now, that $4K RPTV is worth $1500-2000 as the tube replacement costs are not trivial (often $500-1,000 per each of the three CRT tubes, plus labor). So, while the marketing and sales tactics seek to quickly sell of something, and as we are all blinded by that wonderful initial picture, we will, in the end, be devastated when we learn the hard truth.
    Personally, I will never buy a CRT-based RPTV again. I like CRTs, but only in a 100% controlled environment in front-projection form. If someone is considering a HDTV RPTV I would suggest they look at the DLP and LCOS units and save themselves a fit of despair. [​IMG]
     
  10. Brae

    Brae Supporting Actor

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    Dave, as far as I know NO ONE covers CRT burn. Why? Because its a sure-thing in terms of it happening. Whether or not it happs immediately or after 8,000 hours of viewing, at sometime you will see this and want to address this (if not out of curiosity). Before buying an Extended Warranty I would call the company underwriting the policy.

    I have an extended warranty sold to me by Mitsubishi, which is a bumper-to-bumper warranty. Only problem is that they refuse to acknowledge the problem of the video board losing my person settings (contrast and brightness, specifically) which keeps placing the unit in torch mode.

    Simply put, buyer beware.
     
  11. Michael St. Clair

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    I've read 2 or 3 posts on different online forums over the years where different members managed to get a tube replaced due to burn-in. I have no idea if they had the factory warranty or an extended warranty, or what brand they had.
    Of course, I've read many more posts where the manufacturers have refused.
    You should try to get them to replace the tube(s) no matter what. You might win, and if you don't you'll still help the masses get the point across to the manufacturer. Maybe if enough people express this problem strongly enough, we'll see better disclaimers and/or design changes to try to prevent this in the future.
    And settop box makers should design channel guides so that the color scheme cycles to a different pallete ever time you pull it up. This would greatly reduce burn, and might even eliminate it if designed really well.
    Atari video game consoles were designed to color-cycle when paused/idled in 1977. This problem has been well-known in the consumer electronics industry for a very long time.
     
  12. Brae

    Brae Supporting Actor

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    Michael, by all means I do agree with you. Don't just assume nothing good can happen. But, be prepared and not surprised when nothing benefitial comes of your endeavors.

    Mitsubishi told me in no uncertain terms back in September 2001 that they would consider the channel-guide and non-static image.

    I would suggest some feeling that they have been taken advantage of to turn the tables and allow accidents to happen. :b
     
  13. Patrick Sun

    Patrick Sun Moderator
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    You have to wonder if Circuit City's "Performance Warranty" covers burn-in. I would have to say "yes" due to the "performance" portion of the warranty, but as always, read the fine print, because you know the store has! They charge more for their warranties than Best Buy does.

    I was wondering what I was missing with DBS/Digital cable, and now I know: Screen burn-in! I've only had analog cable in my house for the past 6-7 years, and now in conjunction with OTA HDTV. So for me, I'm not as big a candidate for screen burn-in (plus I don't play video games) due to channel guides, and I keep my brightness and contrast level to a sane level.

    I think basic cable is around $27/month. I pay $40/month for analog cable for the extended basic package from ATT/Comcast. For me, the cable is just a way for me to time-shift TV shows because OTA analog TV just doesn't cut it for me. I only watch a handful of the other extended cable channels, like ESPNs, FOX sports, FX, TNT, E!, MTV/VH1 and sometimes the news channels when news breaks. Everyhing else is just a bunch of nothing to watch.
     
  14. Brae

    Brae Supporting Actor

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    I think the only way I can ever suggest someone consider a non-manufacturer's warranty is if they explcitly state they cover uneven phosphor wear. I know they don't (arrogant?) and I say this with a conviction that they can not be as so stupid to have customer's like myself with an RPTV in toch mode needing 2 of the 3 tubes replaced every 9 months.

    No, I did not get my burned tubes replaced upon discovery, or anytime thereafter. The cost was not justifiable as I considered the entire unit a total loss. What good is an RPTV if you have to negotiate a $1500-2000 annual maintenance condition? Its not.

    Had I known then what I know now I would have held off a year and spent the money on a HD1-based RPTV or a front projector of the same technology. BTW, its not just the channel guides, either. What do you think the manufacturers are going to say when people start complaining about network logos start to become burned into everyone's tubes?

    Can you imagine watching 2-hours/day of FX, History Channel, National Geographic, etc.? That amounts to 730 hours per year of a station logo in your lower-right corner. Sure, NG and History channel have implemented translucent logos, but that doesn't eliminate the problem.

    Still, I wonder how the manufacturers are going to address this issue. My bet the SOL Mr. Consumer will be their response. And as more channels (regardless of who provides them) get addicted to their vanity logos and as more and more people buy into RPTV's of the CRT variety this problem is going to escalate.

    Hope the eventual escalation will lead to logos going bye-bye.
     
  15. Michael TLV

    Michael TLV THX Video Instructor/Calibrator

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    Greetings

    They call it abuse and will not cover it in most cases. Screaming about it "may" help, but don't expect it to.

    In cases where they have helped out ... they do sometimes note to the owner that if word gets out, they could sue them. AKA NDA's.

    Regards
     
  16. ManW_TheUncool

    ManW_TheUncool Producer

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    I seriously doubt CC's EW covers burn-in. I think Michael Fusick already pointed that out a while ago.

    All this talk of burn-in from DBS/Cable is making me approach my new cable service w/ much caution. Yes, I finally took the plunge after going w/out for years (since college days). Guess I'll warn the wife not to use channel guides, etc. on the new RPTV. Actually, we already agreed not to use the RPTV for typical TV viewing, but limit it to the HD stuff for the most part. Just use the old 32" downstairs in the playroom for the rest since burn-in is much less of an issue w/ direct-views. We bought the RPTV primarily for movies anyway.

    Personally, I think the TV makers and broadcasters haven't cared because 99% of the TV population have been direct-views PLUS probably 95% of viewers won't notice minor screen burn. But now that more people are buying RPTVs--or are they really?--and will likely get image burns w/in a year, will they start to take notice a year from now? Probably not since most people will just end up blaming the TV technology and go w/ something else that isn't prone to burn-in. Given the nature of the technology AND the current environment, I'd think things just won't improve for CRT-based RPTVs. My next TV will probably be plasma or some other fixed pixel display that won't be so susceptible to burn-in.

    BTW, I was surprised to hear that Panasonic started putting stickers on their TV to warn about screen burn. Mine came w/out the sticker for some reason. Might be exactly as Pat pointed out about the in-home delivery guys removing it before I could see.

    _Man_
     
  17. LaMarcus

    LaMarcus Screenwriter

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    This is terrible, I was getting my set ISF calibrated by Gregg Lowen very soon after waiting nearly a year, and now it just doesn't seem worth it. I wanted my set calibrated so that it would look the best that it could possibly look, but now thats impossible because it will never be able to look as good as it can possibly look.
    Talk about a let down.[​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  18. Alan Pummill

    Alan Pummill Screenwriter

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    LaMarcus,
    Sorry to hear of your problem! Let us know what comes of this situation.
    You are still welcome to come down and check out my system. I feel really bad for you, especially since you were looking forward to that ISF calibration by Gregg Loewen. He did a great job on my Elite!!
    Give me a call!![​IMG]
     
  19. Dave H

    Dave H Producer

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    If standard settings on one's display can cause burn it, how can the consumer be held liable? This doesn't seem correct, even from a legal aspect. It would seem to be the manufacturer's fault for having the contrast setting so high on the standard or vivid mode. I am not a "sue happy" individual, but if a customer is watching TV using the TV's standard settings, and burn in results and the TV is under warranty, you would have a case if the manufacturer refuses to fix it. However, everyone is being refused.

    I have a three year old Sony RPTV and thankfully have had no problems. I really feel for you, LaMarcus. I would do everything within reason to see if the manufacturer will help financially with this matter.

    It's a shame that TV manufacturers have such vivid modes, or modes where the contrast is so high (even if they are for marketing purposes).

    P.S. Is there a problem for widescreen TV viewers who watch a lot of 2:35 material? I mean having thin black bars - will this lead to unbalanced wear even if the contrast is set low?
     
  20. Brae

    Brae Supporting Actor

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    Because the manufacturers will always take the position that they warned the consumer about static images. A static image is not a moving image. Channel Guides line structures and boxes, channel logos, ticker tapes on CNN, the taskbar from a Windows desktop environment, and certain graphics from a console game are all non-moving images on the screen that can burn in over time.

    They can simply rest that they made a display product intended for moving images, like movies and videos. It makes no difference that the default setting is mid-scale or not, over time those things I mentioned above cause uneven phosphor wear.
     

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