*** Official THE LORD OF THE RINGS: THE RETURN OF THE KING Discussion Thread (1 Viewer)

[Rob Gillespie]

It's not only the 'rules' he has to play by, but also his own capabilities. Everytime you see him wield his power for destructive (or defensive) means - both in the film and the book - he is clearly tired out afterwards. In the book, during the sequence in Balin's tomb when he first confronts (what is thought to be) the balrog, he mutters something about "and I am already weary" and has to take a break. One of the things I really liked about the first film was that his scrap with Saruman had limits and parameters - both were getting pretty drained, battered, bruised by the end of it - quite the opposite of the all-powerful wizard characature we've come to expect from Hollywood.

'Power' in Middle Earth is finite; even the wraiths and Sauron have their limits.

 

[StevenA]

Greg, you're definitely on to something there! I've been so excited about ROTK's release I've been re-reading the books and appendices like crazy. I had to force myself to put the book down because it was time to hop in the car and head for the theater! So you could say, I was asking for trouble!

I must emphasize though that I did not hate the movie. I liked it, but I found it disappointing overall. I felt the same way when I saw FOTR for the first time, and now I love it, thanks to the EE, and also to slowly letting go of my unrealistic desire to see the book adapted word for word. The changes in ROTK, though, bother me more, at this stage, but I'm looking forward to a second viewing.

I don't mind changes per se, really, but what irritates me is when a passage of the book is so darn perfect, and so cinematic, and yet the writers fiddle with it or dumb it down.

A case in point is Merry's line in the book when he is found, staggering in a daze, by Pippin: "Are you going to bury me?" or words to that effect. In the film, when the two are reunited, Merry says something like: "I knew you'd find me." Why change a line which is so heartbreaking? :frowning:

 

[Holadem]

I agree with the general sentiment regarding Gandalf's restrictions, but PJ really showed no more than what was in the book. Sure, he detailed his capture by Saruman, but he also made no mention of Gandalf's encounter with 5 Ringwraiths on Weathertop, an encounter which was litterally flashy as it has been observed from miles away by the Hobbits and Strider on their way from Bree. Ok, that was one long sentence.

Also, his rescue of Faramir was a little flashier (again, litterally, that word was used) in the book than the movie.

Last, for those who complain about Gandalf physically kicking arse, he was none too shy about wielding Glamdring (his sword) in the books either, he did lead the first sortie agaisnt the ennemy at Minas Tirith, with the Knights of Dol Amroth.

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H

 

[Sean Cauley]

I really like the maturity of those two characters throughout the film. Watching the first half of Fellowship again really brings out the stark difference in their demeanor (really, that of all four hobbits) between the beginning and end of the tale. I think it's a major growth point for them when they put themselves in harm's way to give Frodo a headstart away from the Uruks at the end of the first film, and then another huge step when they realize they need to convince Treebeard to fight in order to save their world. Merry mentally gets there faster than Pippin, in both cases, but both contribute strongly in those situations. Their greatest growth, though, is when they find themselves in the battle situations with the Big People, and the eye-opening they've received by the time they charge the Black Gate with Aragorn is huge.

(And yes, I know about the Scouring and their role in it, and while it would be cool to see and an extension of my point above, I'm okay with it not being in the movies as it wouldn't seem to flow with the overall tale.)

 

[Joseph Young]

That's a really important point to make because it gets to the essense of the argument by people who want the movies to adhere to the books more closely. The primary argument being made is that the dramatic tension, the plot, text, dialogue, descriptions, and pacing of Tolkien's original text should not be tampered with. Period.

Some people argue that the changes were made in order to bridge an important gap between literary and cinematic mediums. They feel that some scenes, if lifted from the book in the way purists are proposing, would not have been effective as a film.

The argument from the other end (the 'purist' corner, if you will) says essentially, 'no.' They argue that these scenes, if adapted more closely from the book (Faramir et al.) would have been completely and totally satisfying dramatically and should not have been messed with, period.

I find this debate particularly vexing because it really boils down to a simple matter of preference and opinion, and yet it's hard to put the issue down and let it lie. The films have been made, for better or for worse. There are no more significant reshoots for this trilogy left. What we have is what we are left with, until the next interpretation finds its way to us.

 

[Chuck Anstey]

About Gandalf using his "magic" powers:

I have always taken it that wizard's "magic" can only affect other magic creatures and not mortals, or at least they were not allowed to use it on them. Also these magical creatures cannot be killed by mortal weapons, only by magic.

When Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas first meet Gandalf the White.
Aragorn?: I'm glad we didn't hurt you.
Gandalf the White: You could not have harmed me.

Gandalf could only inflict wounds to mortals if he actually fought with mortal weapons. Yes, in The Hobbit he kills goblins in a flash but I thought that was like gunpowder or other magical (as in technologically advanced) potion / substance.

Chuck Anstey

 

[Holadem]

Again, no such "rule" in middle earth. Things just don't work in such a clean cut manner in Tolkien's world. Pipin could have snuck up on Gandalf, cut his head off in his sleep if he had been so inclined. And Gandalf would have died... if you think this contradicts what I just wrote above, you're missing the context.

Gandalf simply uses as little "magic" as he can. IIRC, things got really really bad (as in cold) on Caradhras before he bothered to create a fire.

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H

 

[Robin Warren]

It's line not blade. Just got back from it.

"That line was broken long ago."

But the theater was kind of muffled so I could be wrong. BUT I listened very intently and even asked my wife what she heard and she concurred.

 

[Matt Stone]

It's hard for me to tell, but I do think that it is "line." As for Aragorn replying that "It has been remade," that just plays into the idea of the sword reforged being analogous to the line of kings being remade.

 

[Eric C D]

Holadem,

Don't you just love that description of the Witch King, Grond, Gandalf, and the Rohirrim. I get tingles just seeing that again. You remind me I need to reread the entire battle of Pellanor Fields for the language used.

Guess that's one bit that I'm willing to give them for the movie. But I'm a believer in the Scouring for the EE. And what is even worse right now is that the way the TE is cut, there's no reason it couldn't be there in some form - Saruman is left to rot in Isenguard (as a matter of fact, if they are going to kill him I thought they'd have to change some of the dialog already in the TE!); and the scene could be cut in between their arrival looking all pretty-like into the Shire and the scene in the bar. Don't need to make the shire ugly, but just have Saruman, Grima, some ugly men, and maybe Ted Sandyman. Let Frodo not back down, Pippin blow his horn, and rally the hobbits. Then let Grima do in Saruman. Huzzah! I am almost to the point of praying that Mr. Jackson has one last trick up his sleeve.

Ryan T, re the Hobbit:

Sorry, but we won't be seeing Ian Holm as Bilbo. That was addressed about the time FOTR came out. Ian said that they had a hard enough time making him look younger for the short clip finding the ring and there's no way he could do the Hobbit. I have to believe that. Now Ian McKellan as Gandalf again - I will hope.

 

[Mark_vdH]

Thanks for answering my questions.
One more though:

"I looked everywhere for the creature Gollum, but the Enemy found him first", says Gandalf to Frodo at the beginning of FOTR. How do the evil forces know about Gollum having owned the ring?

 

[Sean Cauley]

Yeah, they basically gave him a temporary face-lift with clips (or tape, I can't remember); I can't imagine that was pleasant.

 

[Jim_C]

>>It's line not blade. Just got back from it.

"That line was broken long ago."

But the theater was kind of muffled so I could be wrong. BUT I listened very intently and even asked my wife what she heard and she concurred.>It's hard for me to tell, but I do think that it is "line." As for Aragorn replying that "It has been remade," that just plays into the idea of the sword reforged being analogous to the line of kings being remade.

 

[Daniel DeLawter]

I believe Gollum wanders into Mordor in his journeys to find the ring and ends up being captured. (This is how he meets Shelob)

 

[Dome Vongvises]

Saw it a second time last night.

Gets better and better, although the sound dropped out halfway through the battle of Pelennor Fields.

It's amazing the kind of comments you hear from non-book/non-film buff folks. It's quite an experience to watch it with an eastern Kentucky crowd.

I'll go back and read the pages I missed, but I remember somebody mentioned if they couldn't tell if the thing lying on the ground before the Black Gate was a rock or Frodo's mithril shirt. Personally, I thought it was a shirt.

 

[Steve_Tk]

Saw it again today, and like the previous two, enjoyed it much more the second time. I don't know why, but I can't just sit, relax, and enjoy these movies the first time. I think I'm thinking too much about what is happening, what is about to happen, etc....

 

[Dome Vongvises]

I've only read a few pages back, but does anybody think the closeup on the Orc Captain's hand is an homage to Dr. Claw from Inspector Gadget? The voice helps too.

 

[Matt Stone]

I never thought about that, but now that you mention it

 

[Clay-F]

What did everyone thing of the CGI?

I was pretty happy with the massive program.

My main nitpick about cgi useage was in the Rohirrim charge. When a few of the horses fell due to orc arrows I thought they looked too fluid and animated.

Legolas's takedown of the oliphant seemed to be a mixed bag of pleasing and not so pleasing effects.

The worst special effects shot in the movie wasnt due to CGI IMO....It was when Eowyn picked up Merry and rode with him out of the camp. It just screamed blue/green screen to me.

 

[Richard_D_Ramirez]

Yes, they do use the phial of Galadriel to keep her away. I also like that we see Shelob "kick" the phial away from her, showing the audience she is much more intelligent, and not just a "movie monster".

It is interesting to note that Shelob's mother, Ungoliant, helped in the destruction of the Two Trees of Valinor, which had brought light to the land of the Valar.