*** Official THE LORD OF THE RINGS: THE RETURN OF THE KING Discussion Thread (1 Viewer)

[Rob Gillespie]

Well, I've been to see the film for a second time today. Everyone must be busy either working or doing Christmas shopping because the 11:30am showing only had about 20 people in there.

Projection and sound was better this time (Odeon Leicester Square in London play films WAY too loud) but the audience atmosphere was non-existant - and it was a bit chilly in the auditorium!

It was hammered home to me this time how rushed the film is from the point at which the boys enter Mordor. There just isn't enough footage here to convey Sam's isolation, the events at the watchtower and the trek across Gorgoroth with proper gravitas. That said, I think PJ managed to balance the film pretty well and - apart from earlier scenes with Arwen - there doesn't feel any dead weight at all.

I wont see the film again theatrically - at least for a while. I get too irritated by people rustling sweet wrappers and whatnot (yeah, I'm an old fart!) to keep going back. I'll probably go again in the new year on a day off from work when the place isn't haunted by kids and other assorted irritants.

I swear though, that I saw a shot of Legolas firing invisible arrows. It's just after the three arrive at Pelennor on the boats. There's a quick glimpse of Legolas running and counting his tally as he fires off the arrows. It might have been my eyes, but I honestly don't think I saw any arrows coming from his quiver!

 

[Fred Bang]

Richard,
I believe the Whilhem scream can be heard in the prologue of the Fellowship of the Ring.

 

[Greg*go]

Well, I've read every post since my last post, aside from the star wars posts, and here's what me thinks:


Yeah, movie-goers don't even know for sure if he's now the king of Rohan. Just like they wouldn't know about Fahramir and Eoywn.

And as I stated before I had horrible people sitting next to me last night. There were 4 kids no older then 17 cracking their cans open and chatting through a good part of the movie. One of them kept telling the others to shut up, I feel worst for him then I do for us... The girl mentioned above said "tally-ho" every time there was a charge of some sorts, and when we were leaving we saw they were definitely drinking some beer. I think they just picked this movie because it was the longest running movie in the theater, and that translates them into being able to drink the longest. They weren't being a disturbance to everyone in the theater, just to the people directly around them.

On a side note, my girlfriend who hasn't read the books, and who has only seen FOTR EE and TTT TE both once thought this movie was great. She rates them TTT, ROTK, FOTR in likeableness. She also did think Sam and Frodo might die on the rock. Then was worried that Sam didn't make it in the end. I know I'll probably see it at least one more time, I'm just not sure how soon it will be.

It seems a lot of non-book readers like fellowship the least, while book readers like two towers the least.

 

[Sean Cauley]

Rob, I agree that audience atmosphere dies off after the first days. I went Sunday night for the second time, and it was totally different than Wednesday evening. The theater I went to for both showings was formerly the premier cinema in my town for years and years--a multiplex that expanded from a single auditorium over thirty years or so, by building new wings to the building (actually, separate buildings that were finally enclosed into one years ago), so its biggest theaters are huge caverns with enormous screens and quality sound systems. It's since become unpopular as "stadium seating" has become everyone's prime concern, so it's now a good place to see opening-weekend showings of blockbusters, as the crowds are down and the movies are on the biggest screens the first week.

Wednesday, though, the place was packed. The 7:15 show was in a 550-seat theater that was nearly full, and there were 8:15 and 9:00 shows that, despite not being overwith until around or after midnight, appeared (by the sight of the full parking lot when our 7:15 show let out) to be pretty full, even on a weeknight. Through the entire three-plus hours of the movie, there were hardly any talkers and, stunningly, not one cell-phone ring. Applause and laughter were large and came often.

Sunday, not so much. Sparse crowd, more casual fans, an obnoxious talker (cracking jokes during the film's quieter moments) behind me, and a couple in front of me in which the husband had clearly not seen the first two films, and was getting lectured throughout in order to keep up (she whispered to him, at least, instead of going full-volume like the fool behind me). I wound up moving to the other end of my group in order to turn the talking from clear words into a mumbling drone.

I'll take opening-night of a "geek" movie anytime; at least the bulk of the fans actually want to see and hear what's going on in the film.

 

[Jim_C]

>>The King of the Dead immediately says "That blade was broken" as if he couldn't believe Aragorn blocked the blow, knowing only Anduril could do it.>I heard him say "that line was broken".

 

[MatS]

This was probably the biggest problem I had with the pacing of this movie.
FOTR and TTT journeys seemed to be just that, journeys. In ROTK it seemed like it took seconds to get from point a to point b all at a time when the characters were more worn down then ever before. I hope additions to the EE fix this.

 

[Holadem]

I believe King Dain Ironfoot is a Dwarf. Not sure about Brand. As you can see, Rohan and even Lorien, Fangorn and Mirkwood have had to defend themselves.

Most of Middle Earth was at war.

--
H

 

[Rob Gillespie]

I know there is a scene where Sam and Frodo, due to their 'acquired' armour, get caught up in an orc garrsion, just like in the book. That will help flesh things out a little.

I was disappointed not to see more of Sam on his own. There's a whole chapter dedicated to it in the book for goodness sake.

Also the skirmish at the watchtower isn't convincing. You've got a good few dozen assorted orcs and within thirty seconds they're nearly all dead. A bit trimmed, methinks.

 

[Craig S]

Yeah, of all the trims that was the most obvious to me at first viewing. I was thinking it must be really confusing to non-readers as to how all of those orcs got dead so fast!

The passage of time between Pelennor Fields/rescue of Frodo is a big problem. In the timeline, a whole week passes between the Host of the West marching from Minas Tirith and arriving at the Black Gate (in this same period Frodo & Sam are overtaken by the orc army, escape a day later and then spend the next 6 days slogging towards Mt. Doom). I think it was a problem for Tolkien himself as he devotes only 4 pages to the march of the Host, and about 10 pages to Sam & Frodo's journey from the orc army to the events on Mt. Doom which are shown in the film.

I'm not really sure there's much Jackson could have done here. The EE will have the orc army back in, and maybe we'll see the dismissing of the faint-hearted (the only major event during the march of the Host apart from a minor skirmish with some Easterlings). But these are both very cuttable scenes when it comes to the thrust of the main narrative.

 

[Holadem]

I don't think we will see the dismissing of the faint hearted. It would really go agaisnt the very spirit of the speech Aragorn makes later at the Black Gate.

--
H

 

[Wayne Bundrick]

This is a long thread so I haven't read all of it, but I have read the last four pages. Pardon me if this has already been brought up.

I see some arguments about the ending being long and drawn out following the destruction of the ring. Even though what we do see is almost totally faithful to the book. There were several things we didn't see that would have made it longer.

But it's funny that I'm not seeing a whole lot of arguing about the absence of the Scouring. Maybe it's a tired argument because we've known for years that the scenes were never even shot. Just imagine what including it would have done to fuel complaints about the ending of the movie.

Something to think about: in FOTR, how much time does the film spend in Hobbiton before Frodo and Sam begin their journey? How does that compare with the time that ROTK spends wrapping things up? Why should an audience feel frustrated with the latter? My only guess is the brainwashing from decades of Hollywood action movies which end not more than five minutes after the climax.

-----

Changing subjects... I don't have much to criticize about ROTK. One of my few complaints is PJ's portrayal of Eowyn. The movie had her falling in love with Aragorn a little too hard, I don't think she had it that bad in the books. This sets up the unnecessarily huge heartbreak when Aragorn refutes her love, and again I don't think it was as big a deal in the books. She should have known that he could not love her, for example in TTT when she sees Legolas return the Evenstar pendant to Aragorn at Helm's Deep. What would the audience think of her at the end of ROTK when she hooks up with Faramir? She's been made to look like a foolish girl who readily falls in love with every eligible authority figure she meets.

On the other hand, I thought her fight with the witch king was done well. And Theoden's death scene was great. Earlier he said he wanted to see her smile again, and in that scene I noticed that she did smile for him, and I almost expected him to make note of it in his death speech.

 

[nolesrule]

Brand is the grandson of Bard (from the Hobbit, won't give more details for non-Hobbit readers). Dale is the city of men at the feet of the Lonely Mountain, which is a kingdom of the Dwarves.

 

[Malcolm R]

Not nearly as much as in the book, which was a period of, what, 14 or 17 years between Gandalf's arrival for Bilbo's party and when Frodo leaves? Even from the time Gandalf returns with confirmation that Bilbo's ring is the "one ring," it still takes several months before Frodo finally leaves the Shire.

In the film it seems like a few weeks, at most, from Gandalf's first arrival until Frodo hits the road to Bree.

 

[David Nelson]

Yeah, count me as one who doesn't think the timing itself will be fixed in Mordor. In FOTR, Gandalf tells Frodo to head for Bree and he'll meet them there, but he has to go talk to Saruman first. 3 nights in the movie (maybe 4) and the hobbits make Bree - about right. However, it takes Gandalf 5 days to return to Bree from Edoras riding Shadowfax (IIRC, but it's in the Appendices). Probably 9 or 10 just to get there via regular horse, probably? 14 days round trip. How was Gandalf ever going to beat the hobbits to Bree?

My point would be that those distance issues exist already, and are not critically important to the movie. I would like them addressed, but I doubt they will be. Only the die-hard book lovers notice.

 

[Richard Kim]

The theatrical cut doesn't definitively show Eowyn is now in love with Farimir. I'm sure the Houses of Healing in the EE will complete her character arc.

Moving on to another subject, the more I think about Gollum's origin starting ROTK, the less I like it. It doesn't really connect with the following scene with Gollum (we don't see him waking from a dream, or remembering Deagol and his past). I think it would have worked alot better if it were in TTT, when Frodo calls him Smeagol for the first time, and then we have the origin scene as a flashback, having Gollum remember his past. That way, the Voice of Saruman scene (or the Mouth of Sauron) could have been preserved.
As for ROTK, it should have begun with Arwen seeing that there is hope in her future and returning to Rivendell.

 

[MatS]

sorry but I am not a die-hard book lover, maybe I will be once I get around to reading them but the editing seemed to be an issue more so with this movie.

if you don't want to let me know how far Mt Doom is when the hobbits get into Mordor than don't show me a wide panoramic shot showing the great distances. In FOTR and especially in TTT I could feel the wearing of the travel on the hobbits. Once Sam rescued Frodo it seemed it took them but minutes to get to their final destination (while hardly able to walk)

I invested a lot of time with these characters and to at the end not be able to feel their final struggle to its greatest potential left me a little cold.

 

[Greg*go]

It appears PJ has gotten more dependent on filling in the holes in the EEs. I know it's all ready a 3+ hr movie, but it's a pity that we still have to wait for some importatnt stuff.

I also don't see how he can argue that the EE of ROTK won't be his preferred edition. I can understand why he would say that for Fellowship; he probably wasn't sure if he would be able to do an EE. I can only think of one really necesarry scene in FOTR: EE, and that's the gift giving at the end. The Two Towers EE had a few more important scenes, and I suspect the ROTK will have an even higher number. When he started thinking "I'll just put that in the EE," I think it starts to go too far. Although it does make the EE that much better, I just wish the TE was that much better instead.

 

[todd s]

Another question. In FOTR we see that Moria has been taken over by the demon and then orcs. Gimli has no clue, yet it seems like it was sometime since it happened. I find it hard to believe no one would have heard that a great Dwarven city had fallen. Do the books go into any more detail to this?

 

[Greg*go]

MatS,

I think we're supposed to take the panoramic shot, showing us the distance that they did indeed speed up some time in the movie. You can also notice that it takes the Orc army a few days to travel from Mordor to Gondor, while Aragorn gets to the gates of Mordor from Gondor as fast as Frodo gets to Mt. Doom. The two examples are related, showing us how time has sped up a bit. We don't even see Aragorn get his army ready. You here Gimli talk, then bam, they're out the door.

 

[Matt Stone]

Well, considering no Dwarves got out alive, there was never a message sent that Moria was taken. That being said, the Dwarves think that something bad has happend since they haven't heard from Balin for years. In the book, it is Gandalf who wants to take the road through Moria. IIRC, Gimli is against it.