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*** Official THE BOURNE SUPREMACY Discussion Thread (1 Viewer)

Stephen_L

Supporting Actor
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Mar 1, 2001
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Brett, yours is a legitimate question, but remember that no system is foolproof. I was imagining the difficulty of finding and programming a Treadstone killer. As Ward Abbott said, these guys were 'wound so tight' that psychic failure of one form or another was a substantial risk. Remember all the physical and psychiatric symptoms that followed their conditioning. It's like a high performance engine running at peak output; even though its finely machined and tooled, the stress of peak performance can cause failure.

On a humorous note, when Bourne was grilling Abbott about his Treadstone activities I experienced some serious deja vu. Brian Cox played a remarkably similar scene in X-Men 2 where he confronted his other amnesiac, super-assassin creation Wolverine ("You're a born killer, always was, always will be). Brian's handiwork has a tendency to turn on him. :D
 

Steve Felix

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Greengrass set out to disorient through editing. The rapidity of the cuts and the caffeine addled camera are not the only evidence; there are instances where screen direction is reversed (the camera crosses the line of action) for no reason whatsoever except to throw the viewer a loop. The first time I noticed it is when the Russian assassin is pulling his gun out of his trunk before he shoots Marie. We see him from one side of the car, and then the other. (There are further examples that I can't remember.) Bad editing? I don't think so.

Besides the fact that it reflects Bourne's state of mind, it's something I haven't seen before outside experimental films: impressionistic editing. A great example is the end of the big car chase. That was beyond cinema verite or music video influenced speed editing. It came down to flashes of light that would probably make sense if seen in slow motion, but in real time aren't meant to be "followed" in a traditional sense.

I would not advise sweating the details of the action. Like Lynch disrupts logic on a large scale, Greengrass is disrupting it on a small scale. To avoid frustration, it's best to let go and take what details are granted and assume the rest aren't needed.

If I'm wrong and Greengrass was just trying to push the limits of comprehensible editing to increase excitement, then it's a hack move and I'd say he went a bit too far for today's audiences. The audiences of twenty or thirty years from now will accept this style without question, though.

Like some others, my gripe with the film is the fingerprint. A big, perfect print from a supposed professional and they didn't just "follow the lead," which would have been fine, they jumped to the conclusion without question. It made the planters of the print seem stupid, also, even though it worked.

Overall, though, a very original movie that I look forward to seeing again.
 

Stephen_L

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I have no problem with the fingerprint ruse. Remember that the planted clue cannot be too cryptic; its only useful if it leads clearly to the renegade Bourne and deflects interest in Concklin and Abbott. Secondly, it was a partial print (based on movie dialogue and graphic display) left on a bomb component that an assassin might reasonably assume need not be wiped down since its going to be obliterated in a detonation. Third and most important, remember that Abbott is actively encouraging Landy's treatment of Bourne as the killer, encouraging her along that path the whole way. Fourth, Landy did not blindly accept the Bourne hypothesis. In her command center in Berlin after she had retrieved Nikki and Abbott she sent Danny Zorn(?) back to the killing site to put 'fresh eyes' on the scene and maybe come up with new ideas or evidence, which he did. Sadly he was killed by Abbott before he could get word to Landy.
 

Aren

Auditioning
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Jul 25, 2003
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I forgot to post my review on this message board. Here it is.

NO SPOILERS

Jason Bourne (Matt Damon) had hoped to escape his past, but his past wouldn’t leave him alone. Bourne inserts himself into the world of international espionage, all to get back at the CIA agents he warned to leave him alone. In the process, Bourne will discover more secrets about his past life, and more details about his broken memories.

The Bourne Identity was a good, if not, great film. The Bourne Supremacy, however, is one of the greatest spy films of all-time. I could go ahead and even say this could be one of the greatest sequels of all-time. It was almost perfect with it’s superb performances, excellent action scenes, and intense storyline.

Jason Bourne tried to vanish away never to be found again, and left the CIA agents something to ponder over: Leave me alone, or pay the price. An assassin (Karl Urban) shows up in Jason's life which forces Bourne to come out of hiding to pay a visit to the ones who want him dead: Pamela Landy (Joan Allen), Danny Zorn (Gabriel Mann) and Ward Abbott (Brian Cox). Jason Bourne will encounter many twists and turns. He will be framed, hunted, and he will even find out more about his cloudy past.

The cast was simply outstanding. Brain Cox’s performance was amazing. His cocky attitudes with fierce emotions were dazzling. Joan Allen, Karl Urban, and the rest of the cast worked well together from the get-go and never looked back. Not a single member of the cast let us down.

Without a shadow of a doubt, this film made Matt Damon a star, and I can see him now given major roles after a spectacular performance as Jason Bourne, a man doing everything in his power to stay alive and get out cleanly. He is darker than the shadows, quick as light, and always a step ahead of his pursuers the entire way. As the movie progresses, Bourne uses every trick in the book to sneak by, and Paul Greengrass makes sure that it’s believable, and it is.

Paul Greengrass's directing style is controversial, as he uses the handheld camera view in some scenes to get up-close into the action which does a different perspective of scenes, but it could be a good or bad thing depending on a person’s taste.

This film didn’t rely on any one scene to save it as many other movies do nowadays. The car chase was being stressed as being one of the best in car chases ever in the trailers, but the film didn’t really need to base the whole film around that one scene. I could select one of many scenes where the trailers could of mentioned it as being one of the best.

The only flaw was some of the shaky handheld camera work Greengrass performed during a couple scenes, but if you didn’t mind that, nothing else was wrong with the film. Well, maybe that it had to eventually end.

The Bourne Supremacy set a new standard for espionage films, and dare I say, a new standard for sequels. It shined above every other sequel made these past few years, and it will be difficult for anything to surpass this flick. Everything worked out in the end. This is a must-see movie, and to pass it up would be doing yourself a disservice.

Story: A
Acting: A+
Visuals: A
Cinematography: B+
Overall: A (Not an average)
 

Kevin Grey

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I always enjoy it when films are able to bring back actors even if only for small roles. It gives a much better sense of continuity. Feels more a like a novel where the novelist doesn't have to worry about salaries, schedules, etc when bringing a character back.

As for Cooper's work here- it was probably extremely easy to film. The background was out of focus with rain obscuring it a bit so they could easily have filmed it one evening in LA when Cooper had a free hour or two. I don't think there's even a shot with both Cooper and Damon in the same frame so that makes it even easier.
 

Tim-H.

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Mar 27, 2004
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Kevin: I agree, it was cool to have him there. The style of the film probably helped, too. When the DVD comes out I'll freeze-frame a shot of Cooper for close inspection: "Hey, that's not Moscow, that's the Starbucks on Wilshire!"
 

Brad E

Second Unit
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Jan 11, 2004
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304
Bourne says "She's standing right beside you"

That was great.:)

I'd love to see a prequel to Bourne Identity.
 

Nate Anderson

Screenwriter
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Jan 18, 2001
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Yeah, that was great. I also loved the last line, "Get some rest Pam, you look tired."

A great moment to go out on. :D
 

Dennis Pagoulatos

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I finally got to see it, and I liked it overall. Simple yet effective story that was not executed in the best way about sums it up for me. I'm sure Damon trained for months to get in shape and learn the fight moves and how to handle weapons realistically...but most of it is wasted since you really can't tell what's going on because of the way the film is photographed and edited. Tony Scott's "Man on Fire" is an example where this disorienting technique is used to good effect without going completely over the top. "The Bourne Supremacy" goes way overboard and it actually ends up lessening the impact of what must have been some really cool action scenes (hey, I couldn't really tell, but that car chase looked like it was probably really exciting and difficult to stage...or maybe not).

The sad comnclusion I'm coming to is that it seems there really isn't a soul alive working anywhere in the world that seems to know how to photograph and edit an action scene in a coherent fashion while maintaining a sense of chaos and excitement, and it's just depressing.

If Doug Liman had directed the film, it would have turned out much better.

-Dennis
 

Chuck Mayer

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Dennis,
I also would have preferred Liman, but I thought (aside from the overuse of shaky cam) that Greengrass did an excellent job.

As for shooting a competent fight scene:

Doug Liman (I watched the fights in BI, and tghey are some of the best caught on film)
The Wachowski Brothers (They can shoot real, like Bane vs. Neo in Revolutions, or highly stylized, like any of the fights in the Matrix, and they always effectively showcase the fights)
James Cameron (I think...it's been so long :frowning: )
Kurt Wimmer (Did a great job in Equilibrium)

But it is a fading art.

On another note, one of the featurettes mentioned that Damon was a surprise casting choice, and he was NOT IN MIND when the screenplay was written. Does anyone know who was?

Take care,
Chuck
 

Shane D

Supporting Actor
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Feb 12, 2001
Messages
651
best part to me was at the end when they revealed who he was and where he was born. Nixa, missouri is 5 miles from here, so everyone in the theater just groaned.

and i spent the entire movie trying to figure out if the russian hitman was the same guy that played eomer from lotr and it was.
 

Brent Hutto

Supporting Actor
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Aug 30, 2001
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532
Shane,

Finding out that Karl Urban was the Russian hitman blew me away. Like you I spent the whole movie wondering where I'd seen him before. I went home and looked it up on IMDB and couldn't believe it. I even popped in my The Two Towers DVD and watched Eomer's first couple of scenes. I still can't believe it. Hey, it must be Acting!

Dennis, Chuck, et. al.,

The camera work and editing in The Bourne Supremacy were an integral part of the storytelling just as much as the same elements in The Matrix. I thought the way-beyond-realistic fights in the Matrix movies were fundamental to the whole feel and essence of the stories being told. Just a fantatically detailed world imagined and portrayed down to the finest detail. Like the Matrix itself.

The world of The Bourne Supremacy was not a fantastically detailed hyper-reality presented in painstaking detail. Instead, it's a world where everything happens too fast to even comprehend, much less control. From the audience's point of view the action scenes are a nerve-jangling blur of motion, things coming at you from all sides at once and too much information to process in real time. Yet at the center of it Jason Bourne snatches enough information from the onrushing reality to respond with the correct reaction every time. He is literally the only man in the world who can function in those situations and not end up dead.

You could make The Bourne Supremacy with Matrix-like bullet time, wire work and detailed special effects. You could have each scene played out in a large multiple of real time. It wouldn't work, IMO. This is not a cerebral fantasy intended to make you say "Woaah, cooool.", in fact there's not enough story there to provide an involving head trip (arguably The Matrix barely had enough story for what it was trying to do and that's why the sequels were failures IMO). Trying to shoot The Bourne Supremacy as though it were a series of meticulously imagined and choregraphed martial arts encounters would have been a disaster.
 

Citizen87645

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I didn't mind the shaky camera and that's a bit surprising because I tend to be a stickler for fight scenes that you can really see what's going on. I guess the difference was the shaky cam was an obvious stylistic choice or was more clearly presented as such. The things I usually complain about reflect either incompetence about how to shoot a fight scene or the need to disguise the fact the opponents really don't know what the hell they're doing. That actually might have been the case with Bourne, but it was acceptable to me.

Check out Jet Li's Fist of Legend for what I consider the best all around fight choreography, performance and filming/editing. The filming/editing is nothing "fancy" but with a talent like Jet Li you don't need it. That was why I found Romeo Must Die so stupid.
 

Chuck Mayer

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Whoa, slow down, Brent. I am certainly not asking for The Matrix type action. I had just got done stating that The Bourne Identity had brilliant action, gritty and realistic. The difference was you could make it out in BI, and you had to fight through the jumble in BS. I understood Greengrass's point and MO. From the second row, said shaky cam made it extra confusing. It did not present the fight as clearly as possible. Which was his intent. I am not calling it incompetent.

I brought up the Wachowskis because they are brilliant when it comes to shooting action (thanks to Wo Ping). Not that their style would suit these films.

Just clearing that up,
Chuck
 

Lew

Auditioning
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Jul 15, 2004
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13


Amen! Finally. It seems that Hollywood is trying to constantly go over the top. They think that they will keep movie goers by making it visual or artsy or something. But all they are doing is detracting from the story!

Also, what is a TV director doing directing an "A" budget movie. His only other movie credit is from 1998. His amature status really showed with the shaky cam scenes. While every other movie is trying to steady the camera since Rocky, he is trying one ups-manship with Spielberg, which is a loser everytime. It worked on the beach of Normandy (and was only used once in the movie), but it doesn't work everytime there is an action sequence.

He probably did some work on NYPD Blue and thought the camera work should be moved to the big screen. I haven't watch and entire episode of Blue because of the camera work and I won't be buying this movie on DVD.

I was done to help give the feeling of disorientation by the viewer during key scenes. However, if the view is disorientated, how are they expected to watch?!?! Duh!!!

The script was intriging and interesting, and the acting was surprisingly good (even Julia Stiles). It really pulled you in with the main character trying to piece his memory together. From that stand point, it is probably the best Amensia genre film next to "Momento." But, the shaky cam and too fast shot cuts ruined an otherwise excellent movie.

It is really irritating that Hollywood keeps trying to produce cheap crap and expect the customer to pay top dollar. This is not an aboration, but rather a trend. Most movies are not worth seeing in the theater any longer, and with a 3 to 6 month release to DVD, there is really no need. Especially, if you have a home theater!

I would recommend to anyone that sees this movie to wait for disk and fast forward through the scenes with the Jerk Cam!!!:thumbsdown: :thumbsdown: :angry:

Wake up Hollywood! :angry: Take a lesson from the Big 3 Auto Makers in the 80s --- Low quality equals lost cunstomer base equals less revenue!!!!

Lew
 

Kevin Grey

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Lew, Paul Greengrass directed the feature Bloody Sunday in 2002 which was fairly acclaimed IIRC.

As for the TV work he's done- I'm not familiar with it but I don't think its fair to criticize the medium he's coming from. Its interesting that you made the Spielberg comparison because when he directed Jaws he only had one feature to his credit and the rest of his resume was directing TV.

Personally I've been very impressed with the quality of direction of a lot of TV shows and would love to see some of those guys move into features.
 

Brent Hutto

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Re-reading my post I see that I went way too far down the path of comparing it to The Matrix. I understand that was only a portion of the point you were making, Chuck. I didn't mean to turn it into a Bourne-vs-Matrix threadjack.
 

Lewis Besze

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Yes it's obvious it was intentional,which is why it was annoying to me,it became a "style over substance",especially at the car chase scene.I wonder if the second unit director was Michael Bay or one of his protege? ;)
 

Brent Hutto

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Define "substance". This is an action movie we're talking about. What substance would there be outside of the excitement of the chase, the suspense of his amnesia and his bitterness at the loss of his soul and identity? A movie like this is a thrill ride, not a dissertation on martial arts techniques or spycraft. It's not clear to me what exactly people feel the camera work obscures.
 

TheLongshot

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Well, the details, of course. I can kinda understand the annoyance here, because I know I'm normally annoyed when the visuals are obfuscated like this. I know I like to see the details of a fight.

But, it is obvious that this isn't the director's point to show great action scenes. The point is to have everything just melt together in a haze, like how Bourne probably sees things.

Personally, there are sometimes that I wished he'd let us get our orientation back a couple of times, so that we could figure out what was going on, but for the most part, I think it was effective for what he was trying to do.

Jason
 

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