I agree. RoTS really gets you to feel for Anakin. When I saw the movie for the first time, my mind was telling me- obviously Anakin is going to betray everyone and join the Sith. But my heart was holding out that he wouldn't turn. It was an illogical hope but much like things in real life- hope has a way of affecting us even in the face of the inevitable. I obviously knew how the story had to turn out but part of me wanted to resist that dreadful end. Anakin's betrayal was not only to the characters within the movie but to us, the audience as well. The fact that I got so caught up in the emotion of the film is a testament to how good it was and to how much Star Wars has come to mean to so many of us fans.
Finally, I do not think Anakin could've taken Sidious at his point of revelation even in a duel of lightsabers. Palpatine was purposefully putting himself "out there" to reach Anakin. Although appearing vulnerable, Palpatine is ever the Sith Lord, capable of defeating anyone.
I disagree - I think Anakin could have taken Palpatine at his point of revelation. I think Palpatine took a calculated risk - he had to now that Grievous was found. That's what make it even more tragic. Anakin behaved like a Jedi should and decided to turn him over to the Council. His actions, although for his own personal reasons, contrast with Mace Windu who was going to kill Sidious. It also adds to Anakin's sense of betrayal by the Jedi when he does what he has been told to do by the Jedi and then sees Windu doing the exact opposite.
Hey I didn't come here for a beating! I came here for an argument!
The sad thing about that Vader Noooooo! scene is that George had the seeds of a great scene there. If he had just stuck with Vader Force pounding the crap out of the room he was in and Force throwing items around, that would have been way more effective and even awesome.
And yet totally out of sync with where this character is at this point. Vader/Anakin is a broken man and not the Vader we see in ANH or ESB. The focus should not be on how powerful he is but on how far he has fallen. He is a pitiful creation who we feel sorry for but who we also feel revulsion at. Kind of like Frankenstein I suppose.
Thanks Simon! Well that's the big problem for me, I felt more revulsion than pity for Anakin. I don't blame the actors, the source is the writing. The character is poorly developed. Frankenstein evoked much more pity.
A full fury force of anger would have made him look cool. I think Lucas wanted to avoid that. Quibble all you like regarding the execution of that scene (the Frankenstein homage is layed on pretty thick), but what you describe comes across like another iconic original trilogy power moment from Vader (a la throwing the pieces of machinery at Luke during the EMPIRE duel, choking Captain Antilles/Imperial stooges, etc..). Basically, another potent visual moment where we are in awe of the "man in black" (as we were in the OT).
But in this particular scene, Lucas wanted him to look like a pathetic, tragic figure for making the wrong choices in life. I don't think you can deny that the last shot of Vader screaming NO!!!! definitely make this classic power figure (for those that saw the OT first) look incredibly pathetic.
I'm sure that pissed off some SW "traditionalists", but maybe that's exactly what LUCAS wanted to do.
Yeah, if Vader had just completely trashed the place, we all would have been saying, "wow, that was awesome, Vader looked like a complete badass." Obviously, this isn't the case though. He's pathetic, broken. Nothing like the character we've always known. 19 years of regret and self-loathing mold Vader into the character we've known from the OT. He wasn't at this point yet in ROTS.
Why would I think he was a badass? The same film showed the same character about to slaughter a room full of children an hour earlier. I may have a short attention span...but not that short. I could care less about the dialogue. The delivery was hammy to the extreme. The visual shot played that up. I thought him asking about Padme was brilliant. I thought the lurch was brilliant. I thought his IMPOTENT anger was brilliant. I thought the "NOOOO" DELIVERY was poor and comical.
So where does that leave me? I don't fit the strawman argument about why that part of the scene was poor. So I'm hardly a traditionalist. I don't understand the veer into camp (and that NOOOO! is camp) after one of the most successful dramatic sequences of SW history.
I am surprised we didn't talk about that scene. Great scene, and probably my favorite McDiarmid scene in all 6 films. He didn't do a lot for me in ROTS as the Emperor (too much cackling for me), but he was utterly fantastic as Palpatine. It's an excellent scene in all respects...music, acting, composition, etc.
I love how there are several layers to the scene as well.
1. Palpatine luring/tricking Anakin 2. Elements of Palpatine's past 3. Elements of Anakin's origin.
Perfect mood and pacing as well.
I'm with you Chuck. The Emperor in ROTS was way too over the top. His cackling sometimes would take you out of a moment, particularly when he is throwing Senate pods at Yoda. It's a great action sequence, but the weight of it dies a little because of the Emperor. Ironically, the Emperor is more cartoonish than Yoda in that sequence.
I love James Whale's Frankenstein films, but to modern eyes they have many cinematic moments/performances percieved as pure camp (particularly in the great BRIDE OF FRANKENSTEIN). Heck, Ernest Thesiger's Dr. Pretorius is in the pantheon of great/weird camp performances. One of the reasons I love watching those films is the veering into EXTREME moments of camp, becomes a sort of style to my perception, due to their striking contrast with my post-method cinematic sensibilities.
It's possible GL took his love for this style of "old" Hollywood pictures to the extreme (as Chris earler pointed out, Palpatine's transformation also veers into horror camp). And while it seems to be a detriment to the drama of the sequence FOR YOU, it's obviously not doing that for alot of other folks.
I personally think it successfully makes an ICON OF EVIL look pretty darn pathetic.
As much as I love the opera scene (it's a SW classic - like a dark version of Obi-Wan telling Luke about the Jedi, Empire and the FORCE), my favorite Mcdiarmid moments come in the second seduction scene. When he reveals who he is....
Got back in town and yes, did watch ROTS. It had been about 4 months since my last viewing.
After this great retro discussion and listening to the soundtrack in the car, really got me in more of the mood than I realized.
Bryan is right...how did we forget the Opera scene?! Unreal. Like we've said for a year now and it remains true today; the Opera scene is one of the most hypnotic, intense, and best performed scenes in the entire Saga. I could watch that one over and over.
Mike, the scene you point out is also a very powerful moment too!
I remember reading Chuck's review last year and agreed with it regarding McDirmand's acting. Bryan and others have echoed it too. Ian is absolutely genius as Palpatine....but too over the top as the Emporer. I really don't mind the cackling as much as his "goooooooooooooooooood....the force is strrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrong with uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu!:" after Mace's death. For me, that is the cheeziest moment in ROTS. Give me Vader's Nooooo anyday.
For the record, the No works ok in that moment. I think Chris said that moment is also about Sidious too. Look at the way he grins as Vader shows his anger.
I kept thinking how marvelous Ewan was in this film. He just has that sparkle in his eye that lacked in I & some of II. He's been great in the entire PT, but he really was a younger Alec Guiness that raised each scene to a higher level.
The dvd image is great as is the audio.
I still want the cue for Padme's funeral. B.e.a.utiful.
Fair enough, but I don't think it's JUST ME I heard it made fun of as I walked out of the midnight show, in quite a few reviews, and on several movie forums when the film is brought up. So it's not just me.
I'm glad it works for many of the fans. As for the Frankenstein bit...the lurch wasn't camp to me. It was part of the drama. And Vader was made pathetic when the one Jedi he fought delimbed his ass. His Sith kill total are some loser aliens, a Jedi trainee, and some children. Can't get much more pathetic than that.
This will be my last statment (for at least a couple of months) on the NOOOOO discussion.
I have to say that I have heard a few people complain about it...both here and among some of my circle of friends. But, the people who complain tend to be the folks who don't like the PT anyway, and were more predisposed to find faults in ROTS from the get go. I haven't heard any NOOOO complaints from folks who like ROTS anyway.
Except me I can reverse that and say the folks who like the NOOOO! scene are big fans of the PT, and are predisposed to accept everything from the get-go. Both (and neither) are true. There are fanatics on both sides (fanatical for and against) of all elements Star Wars. This is a discussion for the rest of us
Except you don't say anything about it until someone else brings it up. It seems like, to you, the NOOOO scene is just something you let slide without comment.
And you would be correct in your reversal...which is why my opinion on the scene holds less water as well.
True. It's only of interest to me when people argue for it against others who dislike it. I have two significant problems with ROTS (and most of us have major problems with most films, so this is no judgement on ROTS), one that is opinion-based (like the NOOO), and one that I think is a pretty objective failing of the film/narrative/story. Neither problem is the NOOOOOO! scene. And they've been discussed to death, including by me, so I'll spare the rod and spoil the thread