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*** Official Star Trek Films Discussion (1 Viewer)

Cees Alons

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The mere fact that Patrick Stewart is a better actor by far than William Shatner, doesn't make the Picard character nicer that Kirk. I wish Shatner wouldn't have started to wear (since ?) that ridiculous looking corset to help keeping his belly under control. Or should I have said: would not have had the necessity to wear the thing? :)
The Wrath of Khan is indeed one of the best, although I keep a weak spot for The Voyage Home ever since I first saw it on TV in a hotel room during a business visit to the US (in SF actually). It is a bit dated now though.
The TNS series is technically better than TOS, and I think generally more rewarding on an intellectual level. Unfortunately the first season seemed to concentrate on Data's un-human-ness. And how he has to pity he has no "real feelings", no "sense of humor", "no love", etc. I suppose he was to replace Spock's plot, so to say, but it really doesn't make that much sense. Especially not for those who know their Asimov by heart. And I cannot help feeling that Data, and to a lesser degree Spock and all those alien entities, were considered odd and less worthy in a sense (oh how glad we humans can be that we know how to love, hate, laugh, grieve, be illogical now and then: look it even makes us more intelligent and in any case normal).
I personally have a problem with DS9: I just seem unable to find it that interesting, a few very good episodes notwithstanding.
ST: Voyager may be the best. The trailer is fantastic, most of the episodes are really good, and the general quality level of the series is almost perfect now (except for some apparently eldering - and fattening - actors), but I have a very serious problem with this series: the acting skills (ha, ha!) of Kate Mulgrew.
I understand why they chose a pc female captain this time - but please can they loose the close-ups of that "interested" look?
The Borg. There's a problem there. In fact the concept is so strong, it could never really be defeated and would spread like a plague. I agree with Ben about the Borg Queen: a nonsense concept that helps "defeat" the enemy more or less in First Contact, but is totally out-of-character to the Borg.
One of the most serious problems of movies based on TV series is the inability to really make an irrevocable change (that's a limitation of the episodes of the series too). As long as the movie is supposed to be in a time frame somewhere "between" the episodes of the series, no-one of the fixed crew can die, no relations be broken or forever build, etc. When the series is over when they release the film, they can make every plot hold (a bit more dangerous when the series is still on), but it simply has to be a bit lame. And a "what happened after the series was over" doesn't look that good most of the time.
Real important changes, deep involving emotional stuff, in fact real events can only happen to characters new to the series, to avoid any unwanted interaction between the film and the series. Characters who left the series are generally not available for the movie as well.
Those are nasty restrictions.
Cees
 

Steve Christou

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Tino, I vividly remember when I first saw ST-TMP at a West-End theatre, the audience started cheering, whistling and clapping when the Enterprise made its first appearance in drydock, and I went all misty-eyed when I saw Kirks shuttlepod slowly circling the Enterprise, a superb sequence and with Goldsmith's famous theme in the background... mmmm my eyes rolled up in their eyesockets, tongue hanging out my mouth, I was drooling like the fanboy Trekker I was at that time.:D
 

Steve Christou

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ps. Agreed Patrick Stewart is a great actor, loved his performance in First Contact, but there can be only one truly Iconic Captain of the Enterprise ...James Tiberius Kirk, hated by Klingons all over the universe, THE Captain of the Enterprise.....
 

Tino

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AKA James R. Kirk according to his tombstone in the second pilot episode Where No Man Has Gone Before.:D
 

Lance Nichols

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I still love the Beauty shots of the Enterprise in TMP, and the first time I saw the film (an 70MM print if a recall correctly) I was hooked. The redesign of our favorite Constitution class starship had majesty, and Kirk's awe and reverence of her matched my love of the series, which to me has always been represented by the icon of the Enterprise. It is a good thing DVD's don't wear out, otherwise I would be in trouble with this scene

TWOK, the best blend of action and Trek, Spock's sacrifice was the so Spock. The scene between him and Kirk features some of Shatner and Nimoy's best acting ever, bar none. Kirk trying to throw himself into the reactor in a grief stricken attempt to stop the inevitable. Scotty's look of dread and horror, as the engineer knowing what will have happened to Spock, and as a friend trying not to loose another friend. McCoy's loss etched across his face. Spock having managed to survive, briefly, the Enterprise's Warp reactor coming back online, and his pain filled fairwell to his best friend. "I have been, and always shall be... your Friend. Live long, and prosper."

TSFS, parts of it were pretty bad. The killing off of David was harsh, as I saw his introduction in TWOK interesting, and could have made an interesting returning character. As emotionally devastation as Spock's loss was, the sight of the Enterprise's death was in some ways much harder to take. I knew somehow that Spock would be back (rumors had his return pegged at TWOK's release). But the loss of the grand Starship... I agree with Scotty "No bloody A,B,C, or D" The Enterprise has always been an unacknowledged character in the series. Her loss was striking, and Kirk's, wispered "My God Bones, what have I done?" spoke of his loss. She was home, his career, and life, and he had just destroyed her. An intresting refection of Spock's death. In the death of the Enterprise we have the starship dying to save the person who sacrificed himself to save her so recently.

Generations was OK, Kirk's death felt like Kirk. "It was fun..." and the loss of another Enterprise was hard, but after seeing the lady blown up 2-3x in the TV series, the impact was not as great for me. I knew Enterprise-E would be around the corner.

I am finished for now... More thoughts on the others later.
 

Matt Pasant

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Question:
Is this a plot hole or did I miss something. In Search For Spock what reason was there for Kirk and company to go back to the genesis planet. If memory serves, the soft landing of spocks tomb was a surprise to David. And Sarak never asked him to retrive the body but only to bring Bones to Vulcan.
Did I miss something?
That being said, its one of my favorites because of what a few mentioned. How it was the most personal mission to the crew. But I still have to put Khan and the Motion Picture ahead.
 

Jack Briggs

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Cees, my pal and colleague, may be the only person in my acquaintence with a soft spot for Voyager!

An observation: The Voyage Home was the most popular of the features at the box office because of the nonfans who flocked to see it. What they got from that entry in the series is that warm'n'fuzzy glow they remembered from TOS when growing up.

Yet among the true Trek faithful, it's rarely at the top in our estimation. Nothing has really approached the lofty heights of Khan, which is our favorite. (I know, I am speaking for the rest of you.)

My hope is that Nemesis will be the boost the franchise forward.

And mark my words (and I've said this in other Trek threads): I just bet you there are going to be "historical" references to Jonathan Archer and the Enterprise NX-01's "historic, pioneering mission" among the 1701-E crew! Who wants to take bets on that?
 

Cees Alons

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Jack,
If you think I have a soft spot for ST: Voyager, I think some of my sarcastic irony ( :) ) was lost.
Cees
 

Jonathan Perregaux

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Crummy writing and directing aside, I always thought Generations should have been made a bit bigger than it was. Having one lame, burnt-out Klingon Bird of Prey taking out the Galaxy-class starship Enterprise always rankled me. They should have had a bigger battle with higher stakes involved. The Enterprise-D would perform the saucer separation as shown, but against a fleet of Klingon battle cruisers (K'Tinga-class) with Picard in command of the saucer and Kirk in command of the battle section. Both of them could take on the Klingons, but Kirk would be forced to sacrifice himself (and therefore destroy the ship) in order to save Picard's crew. He'd go out in a blaze of glory doing the one thing he knew best: kicking Klingon asses.
 

Feng

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"Generations" is a huge mistake in my eye. There are so many plot holes it is not even funny. The probe thing is the most laughable. It only takes 12 seconds to reach the sun? How freaking fast is that? Is the probe equipped with a warp drive or something? Our own Sun is 8 light minute away from earth. That means at warp 1 (light speed) it will take 8 minutes to travel from earth to our sun. Also if something happens to the Sun, we can only see it 8 minutes after the event. In the movie we see the Suns change right away. Also how the heck did Picard and Kirk get out of the nexus? Did they just close their eyes, click their heels and say "There is no place like home"? Why was Kirk not a bit interested to ask Picard about the 24th century and his Enterprise? And Kirk's death, how lame is that? Why can't they let Kirk die in a epic space battle?
 

nolesrule

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Is this a plot hole or did I miss something. In Search For Spock what reason was there for Kirk and company to go back to the genesis planet. If memory serves, the soft landing of spocks tomb was a surprise to David. And Sarak never asked him to retrive the body but only to bring Bones to Vulcan.
Sarek didn't ask. He just hinted at all the clues. Sarek didn't know about McCoy. Kirk decided to take the initiative when he realized the reason McCoy was acting so strangely.
 

Matt Pasant

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Yes, but what did they expect to find on Genesis aside from Spocks corpse? They didn't know if his tomb was intact, and more importantly that the genesis planet brought Spock back from death.

Or did Sarek just want Kirk to collect the body anyhow?

Like I said, I've always been confused by this.
 

Jonathan Perregaux

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And Sarek never asked him to retrieve the body but only to bring Bones to Vulcan.
LOL: That's a helluva good pun, there.
That is a big plot hole regarding The Search for Spock. But there can be an explanation. After Spock died and they consigned his body to the fires of the Genesis planet's atmosphere (or so they thought), everyone thought that would be the end of it. However, at the end of The Wrath of Khan, Admiral Kirk's log entry betrays the possibility that he may have had the torpedo tube sent along a different trajectory, one that would keep it intact. After all, there are always possibilities... and Kirk knew damn well what Genesis was capable of. Why else would he be saying things like, "But if Genesis truly is life from death, then I must return to this place again." By the time McCoy started having emotional problems and Sarek arrived on the admiral's doorstep to inform him of Spock's katra quandry, Kirk knew immediately how to solve the problem.
If this is the case, it is completely consistent with Jim Kirk's lifelong methodology in dealing with impossible scenarios: change the rules.
By the way, I found the following list interesting:
STAR TREK MOVIE PLOT COUNT
10. Time travel is featured: 3
9. An enormous vessel/machine threatens Earth: 3
8. The Enterprise is accidentally the only ship in the sector: 3
7. The new Enterprise is hardly operational: 3
6. There is a new Enterprise: 4
5. New uniforms are introduced: 4
4. The crew have to deal with evil Klingons: 4
3. The crew disobey their orders: 5
2. The Enterprise is destroyed or badly damaged: 6
1. Main characters experience completely new sensations and emotions: 6
 

Lou Sytsma

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Ok - as someone who is old enough to have see TOS in it's original run there is no doubt that the seemingly interminable wait for ST-TMP was one of the longest waiting periods in my life.

That said my feelings at the end of movie were mixed.

A recycled story idea - The Changeling - on a larger canvas with a crew that rarely had the chance to interact with one another. Over time I have come to appreciate this movie a lot more and feel the Director's cut is a major improvement. Definitely the most cinematic of all the ST movies.

Still with most movies it's the little moments that usually stay with me. In ST-TMP when Spock meets Kirk and McCoy in the observation lounge, McCoy remarks with his usual sarcastic drawl, "Spock you haven't changed a bit. You're still the same old lovable warm person you always were!" Or something to the effect.

In the TWOK my favourite small bit is after the Genesis torpedo has been detontated and Kirk realizes what Spock's absence on the bridge signifies. When he rushes into Engineering and yells Spock's name over the intercom we see Spock struggle to his feet and before he begins to walk over, he gives his jacket a sharp little tug to straighten it out. That move is so right and so Spocklike that it gets me every time with a half chuckle half misty eyed response.

As of late my newest favourite small moment is in LOTR at the council in Rivendell. Everyone is arguing what to do with the ring and Frodo stands up and announces he'll take the ring to Mordor. The shot is beautifully framed with Gandalf off to the one side. The wince he gives when Frodo makes his announcement is so poignant. God I love that moment!
 

Rex Bachmann

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Jack Briggs wrote:


Quote:



. . . Nemesis . . . already has its detractors on the Internet, [but] it sounds as if it d be as good as, if not better than Khan. We shall see. I more hopeful about this feature than any since, well, I don't know when.

. . . . .

The idea of putting the entire Star Trek franchise on ice for several years has long appealed to me--especially after the debacle of Voyager and the lackluster eighth and ninth feature films. This thing, though, looks exciting. If it earns more than a hundred mil, the factory may continue churning them out.





Here's further evidence that you're probably right:

"Still boldly going: The 'Star Trek' universe will expand again with the December release of the next starship Enterprise adventure"


July 09, 2002

by Todd Longwell

[relevant excerpts]



. . . . .

"We see no signs of the Star Trek franchise weakening," says Rob Friedman, chief operating officer of Paramount Pictures and vice chairman of the Paramount Motion Picture Group. "The new TV show, Enterprise, is strong, video sales are strong, and the movies are performing in the $80 million to $100 million range."

According to Mark A. Altman---co-writer and producer of the 1998 Trek homage comedy Free Enterprise, co-author of the authoritative Trek encyclopedia Captain's Logs and the man the Los Angeles Times dubbed "the world's foremost Trekspert"---Trekkers' anticipation for Nemesis is high.

"The producers have paid lip service to the influence of (1982's) Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan, which is considered the finest Trek feature," Altman says. "If Nemesis can deliver the elements that made the show so popular---adventure, humor, intelligent storytelling---then there's the potential for the film to exceed the boxoffice of the last several films."

Producer and co-writer Rick Berman believes that Nemesis has the goods.

"I don't want to start talking in ridiculous superlatives, but fans are going to get one hell of a movie," he says. "There are immense space battles and a good deal of humor, but there's also some extremely terrifying elements to the story."

. . . . .

"[Tom Hardy's villainous Shinzon character wi]ll go down as perhaps the greatest Star Trek villain ever, right up there with Ricardo Montalban's Khan," says Berman.

. . . . .

As loyal as Trek fans are, Altman says it's important that the filmmakers not overly rely on their residual goodwill toward the characters.

"This is a crucial time for the film series," he says. "Nemesis will compete in the market with some heavyweights, including Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets, The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers and the new the James Bond film, Die Another Day. The last few Trek films have watched the budgets go up, so it's important that Nemesis do well in order to sustain the series' viability."

But Berman has faith in Nemesis and the future of the entire Starfleet: "Star Trek has a remarkable longevity, and as long as the franchise is treated with respect, it can go on for a long time."

[To get further insights into the modern Hollywood studio executive and their marketing mindsets one should see The Hollywood Reporter's current on-line feature of Paramount Pictures' 90th Anniversary celebration; see especially the interviews of the co-heads of the Studio, "Executive Dialog" (July 10, 2002) at ]
 

Richard WWW

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The thing that I found so lacking in the newer series as opposed to TOS was the fact that Kirk was the most impulsive, reckless person on the whole damn ship! Picard, Janeway, and Sisko are all parents for their crews, in my opinion. Kirk, on the other hand, was something of a scoundrel. He was always groping the female aliens. He was always teasing his Vulcan friend. He was always ignoring the Doctor's advice. And unlike Picard, etc, he didn't do it because he was in command and couldn't afford to leave his post...Kirk did all this because he was stubborn and willful! I loved the way Kirk was written. I just don't feel that in any of the new series.

Also, I liked that TOS was mostly about Kirk, Spock, and McCoy. Sure there were the other familiar faces, but there was never an episode (or episodes) devoted to Nurse Chapel, per se. Not that she didn't play crucial roles in some of the episodes, but they didn't just proliferate central characters like I feel the newer series have.

So I liked ST-TMP.

I loved the Wrath of Khan.

I thought the Search for Spock was just an excuse to continue the franchise.

I liked Voyage Home a lot.

I despised Final Frontier.

I thought the Undiscovered Country was okay.

I didn't even get Generations. I liked the 'scribbled on a napkin' comment for this one.

First Contact entertained me once, but I'm not really interested in seeing it again.

Insurrection was awful, imo.

I would really like to see Nemesis be great, but as I've already stated, I don't think there's a strong enough lead character to make the film work. We have to give all TNG cast their moments in the spotlight, and it's just too busy, imo! Picard, Riker, Data, Geordi, Cousellor Troi, Worf, and Beverly all have to have something to keep them busy throughout the film. I'm not forgetting anyone, am I? It's too much for me. And Picard doesn't seem to form real relationships with his crew, imo. So we'll see. I know that the screenwriter for Nemesis wanted to hearken back to the feel of Wrath of Khan, so hopefully he can make a motion picture that will bring some excitement back to the franchise, which I really only felt in the first two films.
 

Tino

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Kirk's character and the original series were also a product of the '60's and reflected the nations mindset at the time. I agree that Kirk's character was brash and impulsive, which suited the series very well. If TOS were produced today in our politically correct society, Kirk would probably be a softspoken, calm, celibate
man who thinks before he acts! The horror!:eek:
Back to Nemesis, I have believed since I read the script a year ago that it has the chance of being the best Trek yet. It has all the elements that it needs....a great story, tons of action, lots of humor, a great villain and emotional payoffs. If it comes off on screen as well as it does on the page, IMO every Trek fan will be delighted.:b
 

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