*** Official Outlaw Response Thread (April Newsletter and Bass Management) *** (1 Viewer)

[Serge Breton]

OK guys,
we have a shipping confirmation on the Outlaw forum from an actual customer and not a beta tester! No offence to the beta testers but you guys with three 950's have enough! I just want one

 

[Will]

In my rush to finally get the final 950, and all my other new gear, into my rack, I made a simple, stupid, error in considering my new ICBM and its' connection to the 950 into my testing. This is being verified by others... but because I was using an ICBM after my 950, it caused me to report INCORRECT observations on the "double bass" and analog bypass capabilities of the 950.
I cannot say anything right now, but once others verify what I just realized about the 950, without the ICBM, is true... many of you folks are gonna be VERY happy.

John Morris,
Does any tester besides you use anything close to full range speakers?
It takes a big man to admit making a mistake.

 

[dpippel]

So others can vent their frustrations and make false statements (e.g; Outlaw is forcing people to accept 'double bass') due to their misunderstandings, yet I'm not allowed to vent my frustration at them accusing people, that I've come to consider friends, of forcing them to do something???

Sheesh, settle down. All I was saying is that if you decide to buy the 950, Outlaw is forcing you to live with their idea of bass management on its 6 channel and 2 channel analog inputs. You're obviously taking this personally and there's nothing personal about it. I'm speaking from the perspective of a long-waiting customer lamenting a decision made by a company that actively solicited end-user participation and feedback in bringing a new product to the marketplace. There seems to be a number of people in this forum who feel that any criticism of Outlaw constitutes whining, or that they sit on Mount Olympus and shouldn't even be questioned. Please. Without constructive criticism there is no improvement. I'll probably keep my 950 (whenever it arrives), despite the bass management issues. Does that mean I have to put on a happy face about the problems and go skipping off into the sunset holding the Outlaws hands while singing Kumbaya? No.

Look, I don't think "the Outlaws" are bad people, but I do think they dropped the ball on this decision. End of story.

 

[Serge Breton]

Ok,
i just had a thought here. I know i'm speculating and stirring the pot somewhat but the Outlaws do call themselves pranksters and we are in April right? None of the beta testers report signs of this double bass issue with the 5.1 analog passthrough so i'm just wondering if there is something not being said here. I smell something fishy. Doesen't make sense at all. Maybe i'm just over analysing or maybe for once in my life overly clever. Nah, this couldn't be How can there be a double bass problem when no one who has tested the unit has seen evidence of this? Maybe the analog low pass filter for the passthrough minimises this or has a steeper roll off. There is something curious about all of this.
Merc,
i'm anxious to hear your findings...

 

[John Morris]

Then it's misrepresentation. The specs for the 950 stated that it would feature true analog bypass. It obviously does not. In fact, if I'm remembering correctly Outlaw actually touted this feature to appeal to the "true audiophile" market. The latest manual still states it this way: "All analog audio inputs may be switched to Bypass mode for pure analog sound, or used with the latest surround processing algorithms". This is very misleading.

Doug: Please read my previous post(#97). Hang in there for the real info on two channel analog bypass. After receiving my final 950, I inserted an ICBM into my component chain AFTER the 950 and before my amp, which really screwed up all my observations on the final 950's two channel analog bypass capabilities. With the ICBM doing BM after the 950, I always had subwoofer output, regardless of my 950 settings. Once you hear from other 950 testers or owners, from folks obviously smarter than me, I think you will be very happy with the 950's two channel analog bypass mode...

 

[brian a]

BruceD: I don't know if anyone else has suggested this, but if you do not have a DVD-A or SACD player, your solution is easy. Just use the L/R inputs of the 5.1 Direct Inputs and switch the fixed 80Hz analog filter switch to OFF.

I am using my 555es SACD player for SACD and CD playback and only have it connected to my 950 using the 5.1 Direct Inputs. Unless you use an ICBM or throw the switch on the 80Hz analog filter, you will only hear a subwoofer output when something is input into the .1 input.

That appears to not be the way things are working now. Unless of course this has something to do with what Merc is trying to confirm.

 

[BruceD]

merc,

Look forward to your 2-channel and 5.1 channel analog-bypass tests to describe what you hear from the sub.

If possible maybe you can use a test disk, like Stryke, for test signal frequencies from below, through, and above the xover frequency (60Hz?) you are using on your tower main speakers.

That would provide some very useful observational data.

Thanks for telling us about your little ICBM-950 snafu, hope you can give us some more insight into how the 950 bass management works and sounds with your tower main speakers.

 

[David Judah]

Round and round she goes...

where she stops, nobody knows

What I find interesting is that there was such an outcry(virtual whining, if I may coin Patrick's phrase)that DVD-A & SACD players didn't have any or very limited bass management, so Outlaw addressed the issue with both the ICBM and 950, thinking they were doing their potential customers a solid, and yet folks still complained. Talk about a no win situation.

What Outlaw has done is potentially improve the bass performance of the hi-rez formats for 99% of us. I think the other 1% would have found something else to whine about anyways, so losing that extreme, vocal minority is probably a benefit, not a loss.

I think RAF and others who say wait and hear the thing before jumping to conclusions make a good point. After all, how many of us have deviated from the "standard conventions" in our own set-ups? I can think of three examples in my room and with my equipment where the theoretical ideals performed much worse than expected in the real world.

It sounds like a cop-out to some, I'm sure, but don't knock it until you try it.

DJ

 

[Will]

I understand that you can't defeat the sub signal on the analog passthrough. I'd point out that this is the case on the 1066 as well.

brian a
On the 1066 with analog passthrough, it's possible to have only the subwoofer channel (the .1 channel) go to the subwoofer without also sending the low pass (under 80 Hz) from the other channels to the subwoofer, correct?

 

[brian a]

Yeah. I was talking about the non 5.1 inputs. You can't stop the duplication there. The sub info does go to the DSP on the 1066, so the variable crossover setting works in bypass mode. You can set your sub trim to 'min' for stereo, and it is saved by mode on the 1066, so you can work around it.

On the Multi inputs the 1066 does NO bass management. It is a pure passthrough. This, IMHO, fails on the opposite side of the 950. Neither appears to offer both. Again, unless John is about to break news on this topic.

 

[Will]

I understand. One does bass management "bypass" better than the other. The other pre/pro does bass management using a 80 Hz crossover better. That would appear to be the conclusion so far, at least.

 

[Mifr44]

I sometimes wonder if it isn't better to utilize the digital output from a SACD or DVD-A player (which I believe is downmixed to 48kHz) in order to get digital bass management, time alignment, and direct access to the DSP modes? I am not just speaking about the 950, but most prepros in general.

Unless you have a high-end system with TRUE full-range speaker capability (which may consist of subs at multiple locations - another can 'o worms!), a digital connection may afford more pluses than minuses.

I was just wondering if anyone else came to this conclusion.

Michael

 

[Will]

the digital output from a SACD or DVD-A player

Unfortunately there is no standard yet for digital SACD and DVD-A outputs. That's one reason we may have to upgrade to a newer pre/pro someday. And to newer SACD and DVD-A players. Someday Firewire or some other medium will probably be the standard for digital SACD and DVD-A. But nobody yet knows when that someday will arrive. So sad. :frowning:

 

[BruceD]

Michael,

I'm certainly coming to that conclusion (digital input to the 950) for 2-channel CD.

But, then the question is how do I easily compare a CD transport + external DAC in analog-bypass to the 950 DACs in this setup in a quick change from one to the other?

The answer is it's just not possible on the 950. I can only do extended listening tests with the external DAC in analog-bypass by physically turning off the power to the sub itself.

Really makes it difficult to pick a prepro that does what you want for the right price.

 

[Robert Elliott]

Uh, where can the definition of 'True analog bypass' be found? Since the 950 does not perform ADC->DAC functions on the 5.1 inputs, is that not 'True analog bypass'? Where does the definition specify you can't provide bass management in the analog domain? And why is anyone who knows how to 'properly' engineer a pre/pro complaining about Outlaws' design philosophy instead of designing their own product and bringing it to market? And one time at band camp...

 

[Will]

DAC functions on the 5.1 inputs, is that not 'True analog bypass'?

To me, 'true analog bypass' does not mean choosing between undefeatable double bass or losing the LFE track. To me, the Rotel 1066 provides 'true analog bypass'. However the Outlaw's 80 Hz bass analog crossover is useful and valid. No doubt about that! However it isn't what I'd call 'true analog bypass'.

 

[SteveRichardson]

This was just posted on the Outlaw site, then deleted a few seconds later. I don't know why it was deleted, but it's good news anyway!

---------------

Bass Management in the Stereo Bypass Mode for the Outlaw Model 950

As you may know, we¡¦ve been rather busy in the past two to three weeks, working on the final hardware and software modifications to the Model 950. Because of that, we haven¡¦t had the time to review all the changes that were made to the final software before it was frozen and ¡§burned¡¨ into the chips that drive the 950.

Now that the unit is shipping we have been able to do that. In course of our discussions we realized that one modification was made too late in the game to be reflected in the Owner¡¦s Manual, even the 1.25 version that is now available. However, since this operational sequence appears to be of critical importance to some of our more ¡§high end¡¨ or musical programming oriented friends, we felt it worthy of a special note. Please note that this message has been placed in a locked thread to avoid ¡§thread splatter¡¨. We welcome your comments on this, or any other subject concerning the Model 950, but ask that they be placed in the appropriate thread here in the Outlaw Saloon. A thread specifically devoted to discussion of the 950¡¦s Bass Management has been provided for that purpose.

In our message earlier this week we explained the theory behind the bass management for the Model 950¡¦s 5.1 ¡§direct¡¨ analog inputs. Since that message did not address the issue of bass management when the Stereo or Bypass modes are used, the following explanations are in order:

1. When a digital input is played in the ¡§Stereo¡¨ mode the signal obviously runs through the DSP and then out to the DACs.

2. When an analog source is played in the ¡§Stereo¡¨ mode runs it is converted to digital, run through the DSP, and then output through the DACs.

3. When the analog Left/Right inputs for any source are placed in the Bypass Mode it is run directly through to the volume control, thus bypassing the ADC/DSP/DAC path. No filtering is applied to the signal.

However, when the Stereo mode is engaged, the choices made in the Speaker Selection menu continue to determine which speakers receive a signal. Thus, regardless of the selection of a digital or analog bypass input, the following happens:

„h In a system configured for ¡§Large¡¨ front left/right speakers, we take you at your word that the speakers in use are full range and capable of handling any low frequency signals.

„h When ¡§Large¡¨ is selected for the front L/R speakers, there is NO output to the subwoofer in the Stereo or Bypass modes.

„h In a system configured for ¡§Small¡¨ front left/right speakers, when the Bypass option is NOT in use, as would be the case with a PCM digital input, the subwoofer output is derived in the DSP engine using the crossover information programmed into the system.

„h In a system configured for ¡§Small¡¨ front left/right speakers, when the Bypass option IS in use, the main L/R signals continue to run straight through to the volume control. However, in order to derive the needed subwoofer output, the L/R inputs are split so that a parallel, but separate signal path is run through the ADC/DSP/DAC path to derive an 80Hz and below signal. This signal is then passed through the volume control and out to the subwoofer. To maintain the purity of the analog main channels, it is not mixed with the mains at any time.

The bottom line for all of this is that if your system has true, ¡§Large¡¨, full-range speakers, when you listen to two-channel ¡§traditional stereo¡¨ there is no ¡§double bass¡¨. Conjecture to that fact, as has been postulated on the various forums is incorrect and should be put to rest. With the addition of the options described above, in conjunction with the first use of Cirrus Logic¡¦s Triple Crossover and our exclusive analog bass management circuit for the 5.1 direct inputs gives the Model 950 the most comprehensive array of bass management configurations on any surround processor within thousands of dollars of the Model 950¡¦s price.

Regards

The Outlaws

 

[Jed M]

GO OUTLAWS!

 

[Will]

The bottom line for all of this is that if your system has true, Large, full-range speakers, when you listen to two-channel traditional stereo there is no double bass. Conjecture to that fact, as has been postulated on the various forums is incorrect and should be put to rest. With the addition of the options described above, in conjunction with the first use of Cirrus Logic's Triple Crossover and our exclusive analog bass management circuit for the 5.1 direct inputs gives the Model 950 the most comprehensive array of bass management configurations on any surround processor within thousands of dollars of the Model 950's price.

Have they addressed double bass when using the 5.1 direct (analog) inputs?

 

[SteveRichardson]

Nope. They fully disclosed how the 5.1 inputs are handled the other night.

The units are what they are. They're shipping, people are receiving them. The 5.1 issue isn't ideal, but nothing is ideal in this world. At least they're shipping now.