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***Official Outlaw 950 Thread *** (1 Viewer)

J

John Morris

Hi Danny: I'll address you second concern first. One thing to consider is that the Outlaw 950 is sold direct to the consumer, with no middlemen, and therefore represents a pre/pro which would cost the usual B&M dealer $900. And that is the intro price only. It is estimated that the regular price will be somewhere around $1050 or so. That dealer price puts the 950 costwise in the same ballpark as the B&K Ref 30 and a few others.

Next: here are the specs which I've copied from Outlaw's web site. To these specs they've since added a fixed selectable 80Hz crossover for DVD-A and SACD, and have upgraded the 6.1/7.1 processing to true DD-EX.

FEATURES AND SPECS

We've made mention of the unit's specs and features before, and we are finally able to take the wraps off some of the things we have kept to ourselves until now. In addition to answering many of the questions we've seen in the various Internet discussion groups, the following should provide answers to many of the individual questions addressed to us via e-mail. To start, here some information announced today for the first time:

The Model 950 will be the first surround sound product to feature Cirrus's new "Triple Crossover" capability. Developed specifically for us by the software team at Cirrus (formerly Crystal Semiconductor) in conjunction with the Outlaw team, this will give you the ability to individually set the crossover point for the speakers in three groupings: Front Left/Right, Center, and Surround/Surround Back. Within each of these speaker groups you may choose a crossover point for the bass management at 40 Hz, 60Hz, 80Hz, 100Hz, 120 Hz or 150Hz. This is one of the most requested features for the Model 950, and we are please to be among the very few products at ANY price that offer this type of bass management flexibility.

While the Triple Crossover takes care of sources that are routed through the digital decoding and processing, we are very aware of the need to provide bass management for the "5.1 Direct" input that will be used for external sources such as DVD-Audio or SACD. While it would have been nice to include the comprehensive bass management capabilities of the ICBM within the 950, the cost and complexity of doing that would not be possible within the pricing target set for the 950. However, in order to provide some way to control bass with direct inputs, we have included an 80Hz filter on the direct input. This covers most speaker systems a 950 user is likely to have. For those who require the more precise settings possible with the ICBM we will most likely offer a special package price for the 950 and the ICBM.

Speaking of analog inputs, we realize that there are still many audio enthusiasts who have significant analog libraries. To accommodate high-end analog sources where you do not wish to have the signal run through the A/D - DSP -D/A path so that the analog input is never digitized, we are pleased to announce that all analog inputs may be chosen as a "bypass". In that mode all A/D and D/A conversion is bypassed, and the analog source goes straight through to the volume control. You can do this on not one input, not two inputs, but on EVERY L/R analog input. Again, we can't think of ANY product out there that does that.

Of course, for home theater applications, digital decoding and processing is essential, and the Model 950 will have it all. As previously announced, it will have the full suite of Dolby and DTS modes, including Dolby Digital, Dolby ProLogic II, DTS 5.1, DTS-ES Discrete and Matrix and DTS Neo:6. IN addition, we will be among the very first, if not THE first surround processors to offer Cirrus Extra Surround. This process will enable you to listen to ANY digital or analog input source in 5.1, 6.1 (added center back surround) or 7.1 (decoded mono rear surround back channel, fed to two outputs, each at -3dB), depending on your speaker configuration. Extra Surround may be set to automatically switch to a surround mode that takes advantage of 6.1 encoding when a flag is present, or you may select it manually. We will have the absolute latest code for this exciting mode, and expect it to be the favorite for many listeners. The Model 950 will be the first component "separate" processor/tuner/preamp to offer Cirrus Extra Surround.

Elsewhere on the surround sound front, we will be among the very few processors to offer the COMPLETE range of adjustments for Dolby ProLogic II. You will not only be able to select from three DPL modes (Movies, Music and standard ProLogic), you will also be able to turn the Panorama on and off, but there are also separate settings for Dimension and Center Width so that you may adjust the mode tailoring specifically to your taste and the specific acoustics of your room and the influence of speaker placement. We asked our engineers to give us EVERY possible DPL adjustment, and they delivered!

The Model 950 is equipped with a complete separate multi-zone system. You may select a separate source for the second zone, and adjust the volume in the second zone through the use of an IR sensor in the zone. We've even provided a separate trigger jack that works in concert with the multizone system so you're your remote room amps will only turn on when they are needed.

Yes, of course the remote has direct access to all input sources and easy selection of surround modes.

Other "neat stuff" includes a special equalization circuit for use with movie sound tracks, an easy to read two-line display for system messages, easy to understand on-screen menus, HDTV compatible component video switching, a removable power cord, and one or two more things we might fit in before shipment.

The unit is designed with the capability for software upgrades through replacement of an E-PROM chip. We have included that as a something that might, or might not be used in the future. No guarantee that there will be any upgrades, as we can't foresee the future. In addition, there are certain things on the horizon that would require a basic architecture change and a replacement of the main DSP processor. When you get to that point, the upgrade is more than can be accommodated through software only changes.

At this point we do not have final pricing or information about the "family discounts". However, we are committed to an introductory price of $899 that we expect to maintain for at least the first three months of availability. Pricing beyond that point is subject to change without notice.

The Model 950 will be available with a 230-volt power supply for worldwide use. All units will have the ability to display the on-screen menus in either NTSC or PAL video formats. However, the 230-volt model may not be available until late December. Beyond this new information, the basics remain as previously announced:

Seven A/V inputs, all with S-Video

Dedicated "audio only" inputs for CD and Tape

Four optical inputs and two coaxial inputs for digital sources

Coaxial and optical digital outputs

An FM Stereo/FM/AM tuner with 30 presets

Discrete Power On/Power Off Controls for ease of use with programmable remote controls or in complex integrated theater systems.

There are some things we can't release at this point, and those are the system specs. As you read this the final spin on the unit's motherboard is being made on the pilot manufacturing line. The specs for the alpha units were well beyond our expectations, and are comparable to units double the 950's price. We fully expect that the boards now being made for the beta units will be even better, so we'll wait for that before releasing things such as S/N, channel separation and so forth.

Hope this was of some help!
 

Rob Curtis

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
May 13, 2001
Messages
102
Merc,

That is great info, but we know some is outdated, like the "Seven A/V inputs, all with S-Video" isn't this down to 5 now?

Those specs for $899 is why I haven't baled yet.
 
J

John Morris

As far as SVS is concerned, I'm sure if they repeatedly miss deadlines for this sub there will be people who give them hell for it, and deservedly so. Missing one deadline, and missing several over a 2 year period aren't the same IMO. Are they the same in your eyes?
This is not the first time that SVS has missed a stated ship date for a new subwoofer, and I'm sure it won't be the last... unless SVS wises up too and just makes the same type of vague statements that we get from most other companies they too might find themselves the repetitive target of whiney posts.
If anyone wants to continue to talk to me or with me about this specific topic, please do it via email. Responding here just gives additional attention and credence to the whiner's whines.
 
J

John Morris

That is great info, but we know some is outdated, like the "Seven A/V inputs, all with S-Video" isn't this down to 5 now?
Rob: I think you are right on that. Looking at the back of the 950, you can see 7 places for S-video hookups, but I think that only 5 of them are inputs. Did you notice if anything else has changed?
 

Rob Curtis

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
May 13, 2001
Messages
102
Merc,

I haven't noticed anything else, I thought I remembered reading this from the information released at the CES.
 
W

Will

dealer price puts the 950 costwise in the same ballpark as the B&K Ref 30 and a few others.
The 950 isn't even out. Does anyone know the dealer cost of a 950? The existing Outlaw products, in particular the 750, the 1050 and the ICBM, do have dealer costs however. These Outlaw products are sold by online dealers like Onecall. Onecall sells Outlaw products for full MSRP, but I don't believe the dealers or the Outlaws have discussed with us the dealer's cost structure.
 

Serge Breton

Supporting Actor
Joined
Oct 21, 2001
Messages
528
i certainly hope that no one is implying that i'm whining about the Outlaw's :p)
If i had a receiver to hold me over until the 950 actually ships, Outlaw could take their sweet time for all i care.
However, since i have my home theater/listening room all ready right down to my projectors hushbox, screen masking and fresh paint, i'm completely out of things to do to keep my mind off a much needed processor. The 950 is that processor and Rob just stressed what i was implying in my prior post although i must admit that Outlaw has been good in communicating to us so i guess we have become somewhat spoiled by this. Regardless, i hope things move forward soon before i start tearing up my home theater and starting all over again!
htf_images_smilies_smiley_jawdrop.gif
 
Joined
Sep 15, 1998
Messages
34
Merc-

I should have clarified...PERFORMANCE SPECS. I have seen none, and haven't heard any mentioned.

And...cutting out the middleman is nice...but your still talking a shoestring budget at that price. It is, at least IMHO, the most overhyped product that I have seen to date.

But as I said, hopefully the wait will be worth it to the buyers opting for the unit.
 
J

John Morris

These Outlaw products are sold by online dealers like Onecall. Onecall sells Outlaw products for full MSRP, but I don't believe the dealers or the Outlaws have discussed with us the dealer's cost structure.

Will: Good Point, but the point that I was trying to make was that a product which is sold direct to the consumer, like SVS and Outlaw, without any middlemen, really represents products which would generally cost twice as much if those middlemen were present. That said, I too have wondered how the Outlaw pricing structure works. I may be wrong, but I think though that OneCall may be the only retailer to carry Outlaw products and I can't help but wonder if possibly there is another connection between the companies. Remember, the investors and owners of Outlaw all(?) have other jobs and interests. Even if there is not a connection between Outlaw and Onecall, I'd bet that OneCall does not carry any Outlaw stock and that all products sold through OneCall are shipped directly from Outlaw's warehouse. That said, I'd also bet that OneCall may only receive a sales commission from each sale, probably based on quarterly volume. Of course, this is all conjecture. Maybe I'll ask Outlaw and OneCall about this and see what I find out. If I find out anything, I'll post it back here.
 
Joined
Sep 15, 1998
Messages
34
Hi Danny: I don't think that you can actually get or post performance specs until you have a fully functional shipping quality unit. Otherwise, you end up posting perf specs that are incorrect.
Merc..exactly my point. Theres no final specs published yet, so I doubt you will see the 950 anytime soon.

I do have to say though, if memory serves me correctly, that Lexicon had all the specs up on the new MC-12 two months before its ship date.

From what I have gathered on other forums, newsgroups, and to be honest..my personal opinion..the consensus is that Outlaw is way over their heads in pricing and performance of this 950. As I posted..its tough to bring the kind of performance thats being touted in the 950 at that price level.

I'm not trashing the 950, or Outlaw products..its kinda hard being a neutral observer, and kinda seeing whats going on..and then stand by and not make SOME comment. LOL.

I am very interested in seeing your comments on the unit when, or if, you get your hands on it. I'm looking for another pre/pro to put in my den..we have moved our MC-12 into a dedicated HT room, and I'd like a "cheaper" setup to watch DSS, TV and FOOTBALL. Speaking of which...the playoffs are on..so its time to get off this thing!
 

Jed M

Senior HTF Member
Joined
Oct 2, 2001
Messages
2,029
John I agree with what you have said, I am also waiting for the Outlaws and trying not to lose it. I just thought I would point out that AV123.com sells Outlaw as well.
 
J

John Morris

I do have to say though, if memory serves me correctly, that Lexicon had all the specs up on the new MC-12 two months before its ship date.
Danny: Wow! I sure hope that Outlaw doesn't need that long in order to ramp up production before sales begin. Or maybe those specs were for a final beta unit and posted just prior to MC-12 beta testing? Either way, I sure hope that the 950 is past that point in coming to market. I don't want to wait another two months.

Jed: Thanks. Well that makes two retailers. Anyone else sell Outlaw?
 
W

Will

I'd also bet that OneCall may only receive a sales commission from each sale, probably based on quarterly volume. Of course, this is all conjecture. Maybe I'll ask Outlaw and OneCall about this and see what I find out. If I find out anything, I'll post it back here.
Let us know what you discover. They might not give out all the details, but it never hurts to ask. Perhaps see if there's a list of Outlaw "authorized distributors" besides AV123.com and OneCall.com...
Also you may (or may not?) wish to ask the Outlaws if they'd like to describe their relationship with Atlantic Tech, and if they know if Atlantic Tech's pre/pro will be identical to the 950 on the inside, or merely similar on the inside.
 
J

John Morris

if Atlantic Tech's pre/pro will be identical to the 950 on the inside, or merely similar on the inside.
Will: it sure looks identical to me. I report back if I am able to find anything out but I'm sure that I probably won't be able to speak with anyone till Tuesday.
 

RAF

Senior HTF Member
Deceased Member
Joined
Jul 3, 1997
Messages
7,061
It is, at least IMHO, the most overhyped product that I have seen to date.
Oh, I wouldn't say that Danny. As far as I'm concerned "Ginger" was the most overhyped product I've ever seen.
:laugh:
At this point everything here is merely conjecture. Based on the information that has been presented on the Outlaw site in the past I would venture a guess that beta testing is not underway yet. I firmly believe that Outlaw is very sensitive to the needs of its potential consumer base and that they'll let us all know when beta testing commences. After all they did state at one point, if I recall all the updates, that beta testing would be the final phase before large scale production begins. And when that point is reached (beta testing) Outlaw will be seeing the light at the end of the tunnel and will at least let us know.
And, on a related matter, if, in fact, the product is in the "alpha" stage at this point (just a guess on my part) then it is likely that the final performance specifications are not set in stone. And that's the main reason you don't see performance specs at this point.
Based on my experience in the computer field, once "alpha" is released to "beta" then it is usually just a matter of weeks before product begins to ship. Usually companies are geared up and ready to go, awaiting final approval of the beta checks. If the Alpha phase is a comprehensive one (and I suspect that's what's causing the delay in the 950) then the Beta phase is usually just a final check and proceeds rapidly. In other words, the longer the Alpha phase, the shorter the Beta phase.
The only possible further delay at that point would be if something surfaces in the beta testing that warrants a closer look and a course correction. This is highly unlikely though, but if it did occur I'd prefer that it happens then rather than after product ships. (The "get it right rather than get it fast" philosophy.)
Unfortunately, one of the strengths of the Outlaw Audio system - its candor with its customers - is also one of its weaknesses. If everything was hush-hush then there would be no discussion until the 950 ships. But by letting the customers share in the development process, even if on a limited basis, they have opened themselves to all sorts of comments like those we are seeing here and on other forums. Remember, Outlaw is dependent on the designs and whims of component suppliers and this is an ever-changing technological landscape. While I can fully appreciate and understand the frustrations of potential customers (I'm one myself!) I also believe that people who are looking to introduce separates into their HT are at a level of sophistication to understand the moving target nature of this technology.
When the 950 finally surfaces its performance will determine whether it is a breakthrough product and the public will respond by voting with their wallets.
 
W

Will

The beta units are about to ship to us from the prototype line in Asia and they should be in the hands of the testers shortly.

--

As a side note to those who are interested, we are in the final process of contacting test participants. Unless we have someone fall off the list you will have heard from us by now if you are part of the test. Please remember that we had more than 300 applications from home theater enthusiasts in six countries for only five spots. Also, please remember that the beta participants are bound by a confidentiality agreement and not to discuss the test until after the 950 ships. There is a very good reason why you haven't heard anything about the test on the forums: Any tester who discloses their participation will be removed from the test and subject to civil litigation for breach of contract. We're REALLY serious about that.

 

Rob Curtis

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
May 13, 2001
Messages
102
This is from the FAQ section on the Outlaws website:

"Q. How do I participate in the Beta test?

A. Sorry, the participants for the Beta test have been selected and the test is underway. Please note that the Beta testers operate under a non-disclosure agreement and they are not permitted to discuss the test while it is underway. We're certain that once the test is over they will gladly share their experiences in the various internet discussion groups."
 

RAF

Senior HTF Member
Deceased Member
Joined
Jul 3, 1997
Messages
7,061
Well, I'm not quite sure when the 950 FAQ was written, but in the "Holiday" update on the 950 right before Christmas the Outlaws wrote:

We are currently working with the software design teams and other consultants to rectify the situation, and trial code is being tested despite the short holiday week. Unfortunately, the timing is not favorable due to holiday and end-of-year shut downs, and it may be another week or so before we are satisfied that the new code is 100% compatible with all known problem discs and with the root cause for this situation. Once the final code passes our internal tests it will go out for beta, and at that point we will be ready to burn it into e-proms, insert them into the boards, assemble and test the units and have them out to you.

The above quote is what I base my "guestimation" on regarding the beta test. Even though someone quoted the Outlaws as stating "the beta test is underway" I'm interpreting this as a response to people who wanted to get in on this test and, as such, may have been a little premature. I believe the Outlaws were quite clear as of Christmas Eve (after the 950 FAQ was written) that they were at least a few weeks away from beta. And that would put the timetable for this to occur in the very near future (unless something else came up).

Whatever.

I, for one, appreciate that the Outlaws are probably concentrating on development of their product rather than on updating their previous text messages. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that they shouldn't say anything at all. I'm just saying that based on the previous delays and the uncertainty of such processes I imagine that they are waiting until the beta is actually underway before stating this once again. If you read all the prior updates closely it's quite clear that the beta test did not start as per the original schedule or the 950 would already be in the marketplace. That's why I'm guessing that the beta test is not underway at this pont.
 

Doug_B

Screenwriter
Joined
Feb 11, 2001
Messages
1,081
My guess is that the Beta testers have had their units for a while and have been part of a merry-go-round of shipments due to fixes and changes to the units.

Doug
 

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