***Official Outlaw 950 Thread *** (1 Viewer)

[RAF]

O.K. The original Outlaw 950 thread which has been running for almost nine months has given birth to some ugly dialogue and, I feel, has run its course. Nothing more is to be gained by the continuing petty banter going on, other than, perhaps, to satisfy some inflated egos.
I was going to eliminate the thread entirely after the recent rash of "my firewire is bigger than your firewire" exchanges. However, I've decided to lock the thread and keep it here on the forum for a number of reasons.

• There are many people who have posted to this thread who are honestly concerned about the 950 situation for a number of legitimate reasons.
• There have been many very informative posts that should be seen by those curious about this product.
• By keeping the original thread available to those who wish to review the whole situation one can not only read it, but also see what type of behavior led to the closing of the original posting which can be seen at:
  http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htfo...threadid=14694

I'm opening this NEW thread to continue the constructive dialogue that most members were engaged in before this became a pissing match. Destructive behavior will not be allowed. (Several members of the thread have already been chastised for this and at least a few have had privileges temporarily suspended until they shape up.)
Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that you shouldn't speak your mind on the issue at hand. This is not an attempt to censor your feelings regarding the performance of Outlaw Audio in bringing this product to market. Keep the dialogue going, please. The next few weeks and/or months promise to be very interesting as far as the 950 is concerned and it is important that our membership is allowed to be informed, express their opinions, and respond to other comments.
But let's keep on topic, please. Anyone who tries to bring this thread down to the level that the last one reached will be dealt with.
I'm as interested in the 950 as much as anyone else here so I welcome a continuing discussion of pertinent issues. I even enjoy the conjecture about what the 950 will, or will not bring to the table.
So....
As you all were saying.....

 

[Rob Curtis]

I'm currently using a 2 channel pre-amp with HT pass through for 2 channel playback, and a Pioneer Elite VSX 27 TX receiver for HT duties. I am only using the receiver for pro duties as I have 5 channels of Odyssey Stratos amps.

Since the Pioneer was not up to my standards for 2 channel playback, my question how good should we expect the 2 channel playback of the 950 to be?

I am very happy with the Elite for movies and concert DVD's.

 

[RAF]

Good question, Rob.

My favorite audio source at the moment is two channel SACD from my Sony DVP-9000ES feeding directly to my amplifiers through the DENON 5700 analog pass through. Ideally, the pass through should bypass the pre/pro entirely letting the quality of your amps (I use Marantz MA700 monoblocks) speak for themselves. The pre/pro should be completely transparent in this case.

I have found that the 5700 is (was) one of the few receivers to do this properly without adding anything to the mix (in 2 channel mode). I believe the specs on the 950 state that analog pass through will be transparent and I'm hoping that this is the case. Only time will tell.

You have some very fine amps there and you certainly don't want a pre/pro coloring the sound when direct access to the amps from the signal source is called for.

 

[John Morris]

how good should we expect the 2 channel playback of the 950 to be?

Rob: It has been reported that the analog bypass in the 950 ONLY contacts the vol pot which supposedly is extremely quiet. Those that have heard an Alpha unit say that one of the most suprising things about the 950, so far, was the incredibly low noise floor using analog bypass or the 5.1 SACD inputs. I have not heard how engaging the switchable 80Hz crossover, on the 5.1 inputs, affects that noise floor, if at all. Getting this right is critical to me. If the analogue bypass is not transparent, my 950 will go back to Outlaw.

Robert: If your 9K has a headphone output with vol control, try bypassing your preamp completely by using a stereo 1/4" to stereo RCA adapter and connecting that directly to your amp. Make sure your headphone volume control is at minimum when you turn on the units. I did this with my 555es SACD player and holy cow, talk about minimalistic audio. NICE!

 

[Claude M]

I hope you're right about the by-pass cause I like that feature (had it with an old Yamaha pre but it was phono only). How many are going to get the first production run?

I plan to wait even if it costs me extra. But how long to wait? I guess it depends on how many problems are reported here. Also, (forgive me if this has already been asked) will the ICBM unit be needed with the 950?

 

[Rob Curtis]

I'm on the list, but didn't get on until jan 13th, so I think that is the second run.

Will you need the ICBM? Depends on your speakers and room set up.

With the 80hz XO, I will not need the ICBM.

 

[John Morris]

will the ICBM unit be needed with the 950?

That depends. If you are going to use a DVD-A or SACD player with the 5.1 inputs, and a fixed 80Hz crossover is not appropriate with your speaker setup, then yes. As for the units playback of DD, DTS and DPL2, you can use the 950's new Triple Crossover which allows you to set the crossover (at either 40, 60, 80Hz etc)independently, for the front L,R, the center channel, and the rear channels.

 

[RichardH]

John:

On the headphone out trick, wouldn't that depend on the quality of the op-amp they're using for the headphone jack? I know that on a lot of pieces of equipment the headphone output is not up to the level of the analog outs on the back. I'm wondering if the benefit of bypassing the preamp outweighs the possibly lower quality of the headphone output, and in which cases?

BTW, I've heard of some audiophiles using a volume control (all it is is a high-quality potentiometer) directly off the output of their CD player, straight to the amp. Of course, this means you only have the one source, but it's supposed to be better than most preamps. The things that audiophiles do....

 

[John Morris]

On the headphone out trick, wouldn't that depend on the quality of the op-amp they're using for the headphone jack?

Richard: Absolutely true. Apparently the op-amp on the 555es is a pretty good one. On the HiFi.org headphone amp forum, some have reported getting very nice results using a MG Head OTL headphone amp as a single source tubed preamp.

 

[Kevin P]

The 9000ES, like most DVD players, does not have a headphone jack.
As for the 950, I'd love to find out how transparent it is for SACD playback. If it's as good as claimed, I might have to make an exception to my "no upgrading to separates until we move into our next house" rule.
In the meantime, I'll continue to immensely enjoy my 1050 receiver. Not that I couldn't afford a 950, I just can't afford decent amps to go along with it, for a few years anyway. But by then Outlaw will probably have another, even better, pre-pro out.
KJP

 

[Will]

I have a question about DVD-A SACD discs, for those who own them. I know that they're full range on the 5.1, but how full is that range? If you have "reasonably" good speakers all around, that go down to, say 35 or 40 Hz or so, is there much content below 35 Hz, except on the woofer ".1" channel?

What I'm wondering is, is the 80 Hz switch or an ICBM needed with the 950 if the speakers all around go down to 35 or 40 Hz (+/- 3db)?

 

[Patrick R. Sklenar]

What I'm wondering is, is the 80 Hz switch or an ICBM needed with the 950 if the speakers all around go down to 35 or 40 Hz (+/- 3db)?

Will,
I'll admit I could be wrong right up front , and I won't be able to test this even when I get my 950 since my speakers don't go that low :frowning: , but ... based on my understanding ...
No,I don't believe that you would want to activate the 80Hz XO switch in the situation you describe.

 

[Rob Curtis]

The answer as always is maybe.

I have the same situation. I have nOrh 9.0's for all five speakers and SVS Ultra's as subs.

My front right and left 9.0's sit on nOrh subs, although they are more like just powered woofers (not subwoofers).

The 9.0 is a two way speaker that is -3 db at 33 hz or so.

The midrange sounds much better and the speaker can play louder if I off load the deepest bass to other speakers. In 2 channel it is to the nOrh subs at around 150 hz. For HT it is to the SVS at around 80 hz.

If you have 3 way or more speakers I would say Patrick is right. If you have two ways like mine, than you might want to try X over at the 80hz range (no higher as bass becomes directional) to see which you like better.

 

[Kevin C Brown]

(And I might have to wait for real people to have real units before I can get a real answer, I realize. )
Can you switch between "Dolby Digital EX" mode and "Circle Surround" mode for the appropriateness of 5.1 vs 6.1 discs for a 6.1 speaker set up?
I.e., does the 950 have a mode(s) for support of playing 5.1 discs (DD and DTS) on a 6.1 speaker setup?
Or even better, is there a mode on the 950, that will play DD 2.0 movie discs (Dolby Stereo, or Dolby Pro Logic) effectively on a 6.1 speaker set up?
Thanks!

 

[Will]

someone mentioned that listening tests of the 950 found the passthrough impressive

I believe this report came from someone who heard the 950 at CES. I've heard that the layout and environment at electronic shows like CES is notoriously poor for doing critical listening. We may have to wait until someone actually gets a 950 in their own studio or home or other controlled environment in order to get a listening report that's useful, in my opinion.

 

[John Morris]

Let's see, first the 80Hz crossover for SACD playback question.
Before being pre/pro-less as I am now, I had a B&K Ref 30 which supported 5.1 passthrough with NO crossover. My front speakers are rated to 30Hz, my center to 38Hz and my rears to 80Hz. I have a single Ultra as my sub. My experience with SACD playback bass was wholly dependent on the disc being played. Some, it seemed, had alot more low bass than others. Most notible low Hz abusers were classical and hymnal SACDs. If the piece utilized a pipe organ, the bass went low. However, 99% of the bass was confined to the front L,R and sub channels. There were exceptions to this especially in discs which were mastered so that you are sitting in the middle of the band and not in the audience. It is because of these types of discs that I am considering upgrading my rear side channels to the tower speakers that I just sold 6 months ago. The other factor in my situation is the ICBM that has been sitting next to my desk for a few months. By using that unit for 5.1 audio playback, I may be able to avoid upgrading my rear side speakers afterall.
Next, as far as reported audio performance of the 950 is concerned... the unit at CES was reported as only being used for playback of the JP3 DVD using the discs 6.1 DD-EX soundtrack. The report of 5.1 and analog bypass performance was from back in October, I believe, and involved a mid-alpha 950 being bench tested. If I remember correctly, the comments were something like, "Wow, we were really suprised at how good this unit sounded using the analog bypass mode. The noise floor was extremely low for a pre/pro of less than $2K and being that this was an alpha unit, we knew it could only get better." As I remember, the only comment as to sonic character given was transparent.? As much as I wished to be present for either testing, I was not. :frowning:
DD-EX or Circle Surround for 5.1 DD/DTS playback - DD-EX being a derivative of THX-EX, I would guess that DD-EX would do a fine job interpolating those center rear channels from a 5.1 disc. I have no experience with Cirrus Surround but if it is anything like logic 7, it may be the choice for playback of non-EX encoded DVDs, and more.

 

[Kevin C Brown]

John- Here's the problem, a lot of older DD/DTS discs have common, mono, in-phase material in the L + R surrounds. If you apply true (THX) DD EX decoding, that info is removed from the surrounds and sent to the rear(s).

I would prefer a simple *averaging* between the surrounds into the rear(s) for 5.1 material. (In other words, keeps the surround channel info as is, and just *add* info to the rear(s).)

That's why (now) I ask about DD 2.0 (DPL) discs. That's the worst case. The surround L + R channels *only* carry mono, in-phase, common material.

I did send an email to Outlaw asking about it, and they suggested yes, you can use DD EX decoding for 6.1 discs, and Circle Surround for 5.1 discs, but also want to confirm that with a user who has actually tried it. And DTS is also a question too.

Cheers!

 

[John Morris]

If you apply true (THX) DD EX decoding, that info is removed from the surrounds and sent to the rear(s).

Kevin: Good point. I know exactly what you mean. It almost sounds like all your surround is "dumped" into the rear channel behind you. Whenever that happened, I clicked back to 5.1 and settled for less. I've heard that Logic 7 handles these discs very nicely as well as DPL2 possibly. If Cirrus Surround is a Logic 7 clone, that would be an incredible bonus to me... :star:

 

[Will]

The report of 5.1 and analog bypass performance was from back in October, I believe, and involved a mid-alpha 950 being bench tested. If I remember correctly, the comments were something like, "Wow, we were really suprised at how good this unit sounded using the analog bypass mode. The noise floor was extremely low for a pre/pro of less than $2K and being that this was an alpha unit, we knew it could only get better."

Do you recall whether the Outlaws allowed an outside 3rd party to bench test that mid-alpha 950. Do you recall who did the bench tests? Thanks!

 

[Legairre]

Will,

About a year ago WidescreeReview had an issue with seven pages of movies with bass down to 50hz. I use rear speaker level connected rear surround subs and notice quite a bit of bass with my rears set to large and all the bass below the crossover going to the subs.

I know some of you disagree with surround subs. I just wanted to answer Will's question and not start another surround sub debate. That thread was long enough.

Thanks

Legairre