***Official NYC HT Expo 2000 Thread*** Still happy with what I have and other notes. (1 Viewer)

[Earl Simpson]

Come on!!!! Post some JPEGS! Give us a break!

 

[Ricky T]

RAF,
No problem with combining the threads. I'm glad others like you also got similiar reactions from the show...of course, sometimes you'll see/hear something that you must have My friend with a Sharp DLP projector (just upgraded from CRT) went to the show, and said he only appreciated his stuff more.
Of course, everyone's point of diminishing returns is different (and changes over time!). Some people are very happy at 5k, and think RAF and I are nuts to spend 10-15k on our gear (and we probably were looking "up" with the same thoughts three years ago).

 

[JeffreyMercado]

I went to the show nice and early saturday morning. The whole registration thing was a nightmare. It took over a half over, horrible. After I went to Yamaha to get my free headphones I went to Outlaw and they treated me like royalty as a owner of the 950/770 combo. I even got my own Jedi Outlaw lightsaber pen for which I was greatly appreciative. I enjoyed the demo very much and pressed Mr. Tribeman for an answer on when we would see an Outlaw version of THX speakers. No time soon, and asked about the new product information. The only hint I got was that the new product will have a plug. I got to meet Scott and Mike and felt as if I were talking to old friends.

Afterwards I was excited to see front projector demos as thats the next purchase I plan to make. Enter the simseleco 300. After a review I read by Kevin Miller saying the light output was not enough for a big screen I felt I would not be impressed. Boy was I wrong, after the rep. dismissed the review saying Mr. Miller is no friend of simseleco and is a paid runco employee. Even telling me you can not slave for two masters(scandolous I told myself). They were using a JVC HD-VCR as most of the demos did. Incredible, amazing, and the best picture at the show I feel. It was on a 96" Da-lite screen at it was perfect. For 15,000 it was pricey to me. The sharp can be had for $8000 a lot less. The sharp did have its z9000u on display and it could not compare in my opinion. The sharp had a jvc also and I thought it was no comparison.

Then it was the faroudja projector coupled with the native rate dvd transport. $46,000 bucks, are they serious? The demo was coupled with a Krell system, showcase they called it. A $4000 prepro and 125x5 amp for $4000 as well. Then they had the ultra $100,000 LAT1s in the front and 2 pairs of LAT2 for the rears. The latter speakers are $10,000 for each pair. They had a 400 pound subwoofer that looked like a safe. The demo started with chicken run, sad and sorry, animation always lookes better than average. Next was Episode 1, it sounded great but the picture was just average nothing special to me. They ended with super speedway, again it sounded great but the picture was good but nothing to write home about. They did not use HD material from a JVC-VCR, but they should have. Obviously
if they had I am sure the picture would have been better than 480 upconverted.

Saw the Denon demo with mission speakers enjoyed it very much. Some nice specs about the 5803 and a speculation of a new format using coaxial for all speaker connections sounded interesting and that the 5803 is ready for that. I had a very good time and looking forward to cedia.

 

[ling_w]

Regarding AIX and their "Stage" modes versus "Audience" modes - Last year, like lots of you I was able to get a copy of the free AIX demo DVD-A/V disc. I liked some of the music so much that I tried, unsuccessfully, over the past year to buy some of actual recordings.

The titles were delayed again and again so I was pleasantly surprised when at least a few titles were made available for the show. In talking to the AIX personnel I found out that the reason for the delay was because people had insisted that a 2 channel stereo mix also be on the final products and this was the major reason for the delay.

....

A most interesting, great sounding package and something that should satisfy a wide variety of listeners from "2 Channel Purists" to "Surround Fans." The only thing missing from the AIX product was SACD, but that's another matter entirely.

But I don't think the 2ch mode (or even the audience perspective mix) is a purist recording, but a combination of all the mic feeds from the individual instruments.


Jeffrey,

They didn't use HD source because they were promoting the Faroudja Player/Scaler/Projector combo.

Last year, they had the DVP-5000 doing 1080p on Dinosaurs and it looked amazing. Going to 480p aftward was like looking at a fuzz. You can only do so much when the information is not there in the first place.

 

[RAF]

But I don't think the 2ch mode (or even the audience perspective mix) is a purist recording, but a combination of all the mic feeds from the individual instruments.

ling_w,
Yes, you are right, and I stand corrected for using the "purist" terminology. "Enthusiast" would be a more appropriate term I guess. It's quite obvious from the descriptions on the disc and in the accompanying literature that AIX provided a 2 channel down mix or else you wouldn't hear all the voices and/or instruments.
What I was trying to convey was that the AIX package offers a variety of mixes to satisfy a variety of tastes. There are those who love 5.1 mixes, those, like myself who enjoy 5.1 but also can appreciate 2 channel sound, and those who will only tolerate 2 channel sound. Different mixes for different fixes.
What the AIX package tries to do is offer you a number of ways to listen to the performance. In what they call "Stage" mode you are actually sitting among the performers (as is evident from the video portion which clearly shows the mike placements). In what they call "Audience" mode, the channels are mixed so that you are sitting in the sweet spot in the audience with appropriate 5.1 ambiance. And in the 2 channel "audience" mode the ambiance channels are not used and this comes close to 2 channel recording without actually using only two mikes. With the 96/24 resolution the sound is great no matter what you prefer.

 

[Joe Wong]

Hi,

Just back from Manhattan...I only had 2 hours at the show as I had tickets for The Graduate at 3pm...here are my thoughts:

* The T2 D-VHS demo via Runco projection and Arcam electronics was very nice, ditto the SACD clip in the adjacent room using JMLabs Grand Utopias. Other nice sounding speakers included the Piegas where they were demoing some of the Aix recordings, and the Dynaudio (very dynamic).

* Felt sorry for all the exhibitors in the hotel rooms on the higher levels...not very conducive to a good listening environment at all. Still, the Merlin room, the Blue Circle room (some guy asked where's the subwoofer and was astonished when the exhibitor, wearing a blue foam hat-thingy, said there's no subwoofer...and the tube amp was only supplying about 20 watts or so) and the Totem room sounded great.

* I feel that my next upgrade could be in the area of room treatments, as my rooms typically tend to be fairly live.

Overall, an interesting show, and wish I could have spent more time listening.

Cheers,

Joe

 

[ling_w]

In what they call "Audience" mode, the channels are mixed so that you are sitting in the sweet spot in the audience with appropriate 5.1 ambiance.

Robert,

The AIX guy goes on for so long on why he does stereo miking instead of multi-mic mono, making him seem like he cares about detail to the last bit and how it is true to audiophile. But then the audience perspective is just a big giant multi-miked recording.

 

[ling_w]

How about the worst sound in the Show?

Even though I got a friend from there and got me in the demo quickly, I hate to say it, but I vote for Harvey's HT demo of Martin Logan/McIntosh. Video display lacking in color and DPL demo that was a joke.


Anyway, here is my view of the show:

I though JMLabs Utopia in Sound By Singer room was probably of the best sound. Seeing those giant speakers disappear and leaving a 3-D soundstage is amazing.

TACT audio complete system sounded really good also, one of the few systems that did not have overloaded bass.

Harvey Electronic's Martin Logan/McIntosh setup was an embarrasment, with the switch to DPLII collapsing the sound to the center channel.

David Chesky's speakers sounded pretty good. Too bad he wasn't doing some of his 6.0 demo. Wanted to see what all he's excited about.

Krell/Faroundja setup had no music demo, what a shame. Thundering bass from their MRS, good surround demo utiizing 7.1, but speakers often sounded aggressive, bordering on congested. Maybe it was the junk "Driven" source.

WATT/Puppy did not sound as good as I remember.

Hearing the Meridian demo was a waste, since the A/IX engineer insists on us hearing "in the orchestra" perspective. Disappointed the usual Meridian demo was not there.

47 Lab sounded better than it should, given that it is a 1 way cone speaker. Can't help imagining their product might have a AM radio inside.

Innersound sounded very good, no hole in the middle considering how widely the speakers were apart. Amazingly deep bass, but upper/mid bass seem to be too bloated.

FPS sounded OK, some wierdo putting "The Yield" CD on made the speaker sound congested.

Totem sounded pretty good, but wasn't there for too long.

Von Schweikert's speakers sound quite good, very dynamic.

Pipedreams in the Clinton Suite sounded OK, with tendency to for sound to sound like it is coming from the speakers, even though I was not that close to the them.

Linn's car stereo in the Aston Martin didn't sound that impressive, although we had to listen to it w/o actually stepping into the car.

DiAural's revolutionary crossover-less speakers didn't sound so revolutionary.

Virtual Bass Technologies had a interesting radial transmission line subwoofer that barely vibrated to the touch.

Kharma had so so sound, but the had one giant DJ lookalike turntable that is over 50 years old.

Dynaudio sounded decent, but not at its asking price.

Merlin sounded decently balanced, I guess it has EQ'd bass so a hint of low bass could be perceived.

Most of the other big room setups did not stand out.

There were these Made In Taiwan Horns for $65k. I checked it out only because it was so funky. Otherwise, I skipped other horns like Grahm Engineering.

Blue Circle had systems that were actually affordable. Plus the Certified nut that started the company.

Sorry if I didn't list many of the electronics, many I can't recall from the top of my head or the fact that it will take way too long to find out that info.


Saw Episode II in DLP in Zigfeld in NYC from mid-threater, giving a roughly 60 deg field of view, courtesy of Samsung. Noticed artifacts like line twitter, moir, jaggles and slight light variation on stationary backgrounds. All in the first 15min.

 

[RAF]

The AIX guy goes on for so long on why he does stereo miking instead of multi-mic mono, making him seem like he cares about detail to the last bit and how it is true to audiophile. But then the audience perspective is just a big giant multi-miked recording.

ling_w,
Yes, I understand. And I wonder why he didn't just add two more mikes to the array to capture a two channel version of the performances. Maybe now that he saw that there is an audience for two channel sound (he claimed that the delay in the release of the AIX discs previewed last year was to include a 2 channel mix-down) maybe this will be included in future recording sessions?
I don't see where there would be a major problem unless I'm missing something. What do you think?

 

[John Dunlap]

I was only at the show for about 4 hours. The big draw for me was the Paradigm room and I was not disappointed. On display were the Studio 100's as mains, 2 Studio 40's as the Center, Some Dipolar speakers on the sides and Studio 20's (???) in the rear. 2 Servo 15's provided the LFE. Everything was being driven by Anthem components. Demo material was of course the TM podrace scene.

I also enjoyed the Outlaw Vertical limit demo. Sound was extremely clean with even the most minute details beautifully articulated.

The Krell/Faroudja room was of course spectacular and the Sound by Singer setup was real nice.....that is until I saw the bottom line- $180,000 !!!!

 

[Larry B]

Ling:

Merlin sounded decently balanced, I guess it has EQ'd bass so a hint of low bass could be perceived.

I was impressed enough that I am going to audition a pair in my home.
And my vote for worst sound of the show goes to Polk Audio. While their new speakers seemed OK, the surround demo was dreadful. During the Dianna Krall concert, it was impossible to localize any of the musicians. Had I payed to get in, I would have asked for a refund.
And in response to RickyT's query: My visit to the show crystalized all the weaknesses in my (2-channel) system, and makes me want to upgrade even more than I already did. The speakers I'm currently considering are Kharmas, Revels (not at the show), and Merlins. For electronics, I am eager to test out the new BAT pre-amplifiers (soon to be released), as well as the Ayre K-1x preamp. I have not yet given much thought to amps, but I will.
Larry
Edit: My vote for best bang for the buck goes to Audes. They had some wonderful-sounding speakers for $2,000/pair, which were veing driven by tube monoblocks (approx. $3,500 for both).

 

[Patrick R. Sklenar]

... I wasn't able to hear the Outlaw 7.1 demo because Peter couldn't get the Yamaha dvd player to output 5.1, ...

Ricky T,
FYI, the problem turned out to be with the DVD. Seems Columbia discs default to DPL, not DD. Any time the player was shut down or the disc ejected, the disc would restart in its default DPL mode. They had to go into the disc's audio menu to select DD. Appearently Scott and/or Jonathan knew that, but Peter didn't. Since he was alone in the room early saturday & having difficulty with it, Gregg Loewen and I figured out the issue and got him going in time for the second demo of the day. Should have been okay from then on, unless someone ejected the disc on him.
It was great meeting the Outlaws (I'd met Scott & Peter last year - this was the first time I'd met Mike and Jonathan). It was neat seeing all of that really high end equipment in so many of the other rooms ... I'll never be able to afford it, but it's need to see/hear. I also got to meet Dr Fowkes & Gregg Loewen - Hi guys!! {wave} Over all, I enjoyed the show.

 

[Larry B]

To all:

As an interesting aside, the vast majority of the high end systems used tube amps.

Larry

 

[Mike Main]

U catch the hot chick at the Totem room changing CD's.
That was nice.
My apologies to all the people I just offended.
Mike :b

 

[RAF]

Hi Patrick. It was good to meet you.

Apparently Scott and/or Jonathan knew that, but Peter didn't.

That's because Peter was too busy concentrating on the Red Sox taking 2 games from the Yankees. I tried to tell him that the only Boston-NY "event" of significance this weekend took place up at the Fleet center and we know how that one turned out. See you in October, Peter!

We now return you to the Home Theater Expo (cool chicks and all)

 

[ling_w]

Robert,

And my vote for worst sound of the show goes to Polk Audio.

I have to tell you, I didn't visit any of the mid-fi rooms, so I can't tell what are truely bad sounds at the show.

 

[Larry B]

Ling:

Which planars do you have, and in what way do they sound large? Height? Soundstage width? Depth?

Larry

 

[Holadem]

I had posted the following next door (in the speaker forum). I ran a search there for HE2002, but didn't think about doing it here :b . Here we go:
--
Before you read further, please understand that I am no audiophile, really. If you can bear to hear the impressions of a "regular guy" only, then read on
I spent only a few hours in the Home Entertainment 2002 show in NYC, so I probably saw perhaps than 20% of what was there. This show represents my first foray into high end stuff.
My first shock came when I heard the Dynaudio Confidence. It was playing an intrumental track from Patricia Barber's Cafe Blue. Well, I don't have the audiophile buzz words to describe my impressions. I will simply say that I have never fallen in love with the sound of a speaker before. Today I heard the most beatiful sound to have ever graced my ears. The clarity and smoothness was incredible. I used to swear that no speakers were worth this kind of money: $12000, which is what those retailed for. I guess I was wrong. The day I can afford them, I will get them. Oh, I forgot to mention the look: gorgeous, in this classy way...
Wilson Watt/Puppy System 7 which I had heard so much of was a dissapointment. I believe it costs much more than the above system, but the Confidence sounded much better in my ears. The Wilson were driven by these huge tube amps. One thing that was remarkable with them: while I did not care for their sound, the speakers had dissapeared completely by some magic. The sound was just there.
Paradigm Studio 100: Another dissapointment: I recognised in those speakers the things I have come to not like in my monitor 7: the forwardness of the middrange. It sounded of course better than what I have, but it also had too much of the same characteristic. This made me realise that I was not as crazy about my monitor 7's as I though, since I wanted a completely different sound from the higher models... That was with music. With HT, that forwardness is much welcome. The pod race had never sounded so glorious except with the...
Krell setup. I believe we are at the limit of "home theater", sice it was setup in a room the size of a small theater. And it sounded better than any small theater I have been to. I am sorry I forgot the name of the speakers . The were these huge metallic towers and bookshelves. The bookshleves alone were $10000.
TOTEM Forest were the HUGE surprise of the day. I have heard the name, but tho I am no expert, I never knew they were so good. I spent nearly an hour in that room listening to various musics. These speakers are very dimunitive (they call them mini towers...) but they put out a full, rich, clear sound. I kept asking where they hid the sub. What I also learnt was that it was possible to fall in love with two speakers at the same time! . Believe it or not, in my ears, these $3000 speakers sounded as good as the Dynaudio Confidence, and they both were significantly better than everything else I ever heard in my life! Considering the Dynaudio cost 4 times more, the winner in my eyes is clear. This just goes to show how important it is to audition as much as possible before you buy. I will be looking for these TOTEM Forrest when I am ready to upgrade (next year).
In all, the three hours I spent were quite eye opening:
- Sometimes the insane amount people spend on their equipement is justified soundwise.
- Brand loyalty (Paradigm) or what is considered a safe bet might make you missout on a lot of good if somewhat exotic stuff (TOTEM)
- A speaker can actually sound as good as speakers costing 4 times more
I ran a search on TOTEM, and it seems the Forrest were never mentioned on this forum :frowning:. KeithH does have the Arros...
--
Holadem

 

[Larry B]

Holadem:

While my likes and dislikes don't completely comport with yours (and there's no reason they should), it is a pleasure to learn of some one "seeing the light" (or is that, "hearing the music?") for the first time. Thank you for sharing that with us.

Regards,

Larry

 

[ling_w]

Larry,

Which planars do you have, and in what way do they sound large? Height? Soundstage width? Depth?

I have the Magnepan MG-IIIa mains, MGCC1 center and MG10.1 surround.

They don't sound large as in larger than life, but they just have a life sized sound. They give a perceived height and the soundstage has more volume to it. Imaging is not the best, but with my Meridian processor's Trifield mode, that problem becomes much smaller.

I don't necessarily think small speakers produces small sound. Some of the most realistic sound I've heard comes from small speakers, like the Wilson Watt/Puppies and Spica TC-15. But too many just leaves the 2-D soundstage (width and depth), not giving a height impression.

Also, I thought the JMLab Utopia would sound bad, giving its giant front baffle size. But once the music played, those giant speakers disappeared leaving only the instruments and performers around.


All the sound impressios has alot to do with listening position, so many of the speakers that were not listed were probably heard in sub-par seats.