*** Official "FRAILTY" Discussion Thread (2 Viewers)

[Alex Spindler]

I don't know John,

I will admit that there is no way to be sure if the previous 'demons' where really bad people. The only evidence was the eventual flashback to what was shown from the laying of hands. But Powers Boothe confessed after he was touched. He really did kill his mother. So I can't see how the devil would benfit from having him killed.


That's the big hole in your theory.

 

[Paul Richardson]

I'm going to dispense with the spoiler tags, because anybody who's read this far in the thread has already been spoiled.

A recurring theme in literature involves the Devil gathering souls, usually through trickery. If in fact he is guiding Dad and Adam, it would be to get those evil souls to Hell faster than normal before they could repent and go to heaven. Not to mention that he possibly turned Fenton into a serial killer, thus gaining one more soul than he otherwise would have gotten.

Come to think of it, this wouldn't be the first time somebody named Adam was misdirected by the Devil, eh?

 

[John Spencer]

Well, Alex,
My take on that is that doing evil in the name of God would be just as beneficial for Satan as doing it in Satan's name. What I'm saying is that EVERYONE involved was guilty. Then the Devil would be playing on a God-fearing man's desire to serve and do good, yet be "corrupting him with candy." It's kind of along the lines of the belief that Satan won't look like a demon. He'll look like someone you want to know.

Now then, don't ever think to question my logic again.

 

[Shane Martin]

Interesting takes so far in this thread regarding what I consider one of the best movies of the year and perhaps one of the better movies I've seen in the past 5 years.

Easily 5 stars for me.

 

[Alex Spindler]

OK John,
That is a tricky thing to pass off...someone guilty of matricide being an agent of god. That would have to be what Powers Boothe was to fit in the logic.

But I suppose stranger things have been attributed in religeous lore.

 

[John Spencer]

Not at all, Alex. Read what I said again. My point is that maybe everyone involved was being directed by sinister forces. My point is that there may be no "good guy" in the story. There's simply evil people in all shades. Some masquerade under the guise of holiness, while others attempt to hide a checkered past by wearing a badge. Neither one is correct, but the moral confusion caused by the situation allows but one clear winner. That being whatever dark forces are behind the facade.

 

[Alex Spindler]

I see your point, but it seems slightly silly to me for the dark forces to discard their minions in such a way when there are so many fluffy bunnies out there.

 

[Brett_B]

I was disappointed in this movie after hearing such glowing reviews, and I agree that it was too predictable (even though I was caught off guard by the Adam/Fenton revelation).

I felt that the constant avoidance of touch by Adam from the FBI agent was a bit much.

It was definitely better than most movies I have seen this year, but another one that fell short of its mark.

 

[Mark Pfeiffer]

John, I suppose that interpretation could work, but as far as I can tell, there's no evidence of such a suggestion being made by the filmmakers. Sure, it's possible but I think this is a case of reading something into it that was never intended.

 

[John Spencer]

John, I suppose that interpretation could work, but as far as I can tell, there's no evidence of such a suggestion being made by the filmmakers. Sure, it's possible but I think this is a case of reading something into it that was never intended.

Sure, my version may raise as many questions as it answers, but that's how I see it referencing the fringe Christian movements of the 20th century.

 

[Tino]

I certainly can understand John's take and see how it could be interpreted as such, although I guess there could be many different interpretations of who made who do what. That's what was great about it.
I really liked this film. A very strong first effort from Mr Paxton( not Seth, Bill) and everyone else involved.
BTW, any one else catch the other religious references such as young Fenton's Stigmata and the fact that it took him SIX days to create the "dungeon"?
Think they mean anything?

 

[DennisP]

My Wife and I just returned from seeing this movie. Both of us agree that it may not be the type of movie for everyone. However, if you like movies and want to see something different....GO SEE THIS FILM. I really enjoyed this movie...the ending certainly was a shocker for me and left me thinking about it long after we left the theater. My take on the movie is that it allows for a viewer (after seeing the film) to come to one of two conclusions.

Either you believe that Dad was deranged and turned both his sons into serial killers in the name of religion


or

Dad actually was visited by an angel and given a divine mission to fight demons in the final battle.


The way the movie is framed you are directed down the path to believe the first premise, however with some gentle prodding by the director you are moved to believe the second premise is true when:

the cameras cannot record the "Adam" character when he enters and leaves the FBI office, and the FBI agent can't remember what Adam looks like even after shaking his hand and looking into face before meeting the Powers Booth character. That same FBI agent again meets Adam face to face, shakes his hand and still doesn't recognize him (just as the angel told Dad "God will blind them to your presence".


This movie was wonderfully constucted. It leads you along a path we have been down in many other movies of this type....but then pulls the rug out from under you at the end. It lets us all feel comfortable with what we think goes on in the mind of a serial killer until the the final scene...and then leaves us with a much more distrubing and frightening possibility. This is the best movie I have seen this year and hope it is a box office success. This movie breaks the typical Hollywood story line with a intresting and refreshing twist.

My wife summed the movie up very nicely. She said that "this film will say different things to different people". I for one am happy to see a film accomplish that.

 

[Scott Burke]

SPOILER, SPOILER!!!
John I agree with you..
This is where I was getting confused. The sins that we see the "demons" committing is murder. By this logic, the sin that sets itself apart from the others is murder. However, in the bible it states that no sin is greater than the other. Having been a religous family in the movie, I thought that this would be something that the family would be familiar with. So it is possible that the "great deciever" was invovled. I just could not understand how the family could overlook the glaring irony that they themselves were committing the same sin they were destroying demons for.
At this point, I thought of Spawn the Animated Series Season Three. In the season, they state that as heaven and hell battle the lines of Good and Evil Blur. Depending on what side you claim to be on is what determines whether you were "right or wrong".
I can't remember who posted that Fenton had committed murder to frame his brother, but I disagree. All of the people they claimed were "demons" were for acts that were ALREADY COMMITTED. Fenton's dad was told he was a demon even before he had had the opportunity to think of such a plan.
I love disecting movies. I was talking about this movie all the way home, and my girlfriend said "Stop analyzing the movie!" She apparently does not like to disect movies, oh well. That's why I'm a memember of this forum.

 

[John Spencer]

John I agree with you..

See!!! See!!!
Ah...sweet redemption...

 

[Alex Spindler]

Spoiler! Spoiler!

Scott,

They were 'destroyed' after the murders and crimes they committed, but they were always demons. Just like Fenton always a demon. But he was never destroyed until the time was right, long after he killed his first person. So, I think it is still consistent that he had killed people and purposely left the "God's Hand" notes to try and bring his brother down (or to mock him).

And Tino, I caught those references too. Very interesting that one.

 

[Brett_B]

It leads you along a path we have been down in many other movies of this type....but then pulls the rug out from under you at the end.

Was I the only one who picked up on Adam refusing to be touched by the agent (didn't shake his hand when he walked into his office, agent tossing him the handcuffs, Adam shying away from agent when agent tried to help him into the car)?

 

[DennisP]

snip;

Or, how about when Adam finally touches the FBI agent (Booth) and the agent says something like, "How did you know?" Not to mention all of the other flashback sequences involving the sins of the demons.

I didn't mention those instances (alhtough I suppose I could have) for sake of avoiding a debate where it could be construed that Adam and his father were Clarvoiant, (in the same vain as the "Dead Zone", "Gift", and the "Unbreakable" characters)..all having an ability to sense the past or future and then feel responsible to act upon them. The fact that the cameras couldn't record Adam or the FBI agent couldn't identify him infers some greater power at work outside of Adam.

 

[Brett_B]

Dennis,
My response was in regards to your post when you mentioned:

you are directed down the path to believe the first premise, however with some gentle prodding by the director you are moved to believe the second premise is true

I was offering more evidence to support the second premise. That's all .
It seems that there are (IMO) two different debates going on. The first being whether the Dad is deranged or if he did actually see the angel, and the second being whether they (Dad & Adam) were influenced by good or evil (or some other force).

 

[DennisP]

Brett,
Hope you didn't take my post the wrong way. I knew that's what you were doing Hope I didn't offend you in any way.
I agree, that the movie is stimulating the two debates you mentioned. I am pretty sure this movie will affect a person with deep religious beliefs much more than someone without those deep beliefs. I find this evidenced with people trying to explain Satan's influence in the movie. That's cool if it makes the movie easier for them to digest. This movie can mean different things to different people. I see this movie as a bit of trickery on the part of the writer and director. They are feeding us a story we have seen before and most certainly have cheered for in a slightly different order of presentation. Let me try and give and example of what I mean.
I'm sure we've all seen a movie like John Carpenter's "Vampires"...where the good guys are hunting down the vampires..impailing them and destroying them. That type of movie sets the story up in the beginning where you know who the good guys are and you know who the Vampires are. That movie also sets up the Church's involvment in the entire affair basically putting "God's" stamp of approval in the destroying of these evil undead creatures. Now lets take that same movie..but present the vampires as normal people in the begining. You now have a group of guys (which we see as as crazy religious serial killers) dragging poor innocent people out of homes and killing them in the name of something holy. If a movie sets the story in this manner...you can certainly see how it will bring all these debates to light. The vampire hunters can appear to be so evil and so merciless in their quest to kill these people that we are misdirected away from their true purpose. Then at the very end or the movie..you are let in on the little secret that these victims are actually vampires and everyone breathes a sigh of relief. The trick with Frailty is...they called them demons and they don't have the fangs and tallow color skin.
I don't know if anyone else will see the same slight of hand...but everyone can have have an opinion...lol

 

[Brett_B]

Dennis,

Hope you didn't take my post the wrong way. I knew that's what you were doing Hope I didn't offend you in any way.

Don't worry, you didn't offend me in any way.
I agree with what you are saying in your most recent post. The movie was setting itself up to seriously question the Dad's motives (did he see an angel or is he going insane). I started to question that at first until they were heading out to the Rose Garden and "Adam" shyed away from the agent. It was at that point that I figured out where the movie was headed. I knew it was only a set up to get the agent away from his comfort zone. The only thing that surprised me was the Adam/Fenton revelation. I was starting to believe that Fenton did see an angel while he was locked in the cellar.