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*** Official Film Noir Discussion Thread (1 Viewer)

Robert Crawford

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It's quite similar but not as good as The Maltese Falcon, however, it's better than Satan Met a Lady which is another film adaptation that came out before the 1941 version.





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Robert Crawford

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Not me brother! Last night, during a phone conversation I told another HTF Administrator that I could never put together any type of "best of" film listing because I've seen too many films over the years and it will cause my pea brain to overload trying to put together such a list.






Crawdaddy
 

Glenn R

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I'm glad Herb's post cited a website which itself cited the scholarly literature on film noir. While I'm a longtime fan of film noir, I've had mixed feelings about this and related threads because it covers ground (definitions, lists, genre vs. not) long addressed elsewhere. My guess is that some posts here actually draw more or less directly from this literature. I know reading books and articles may not be everyone's cup of tea nowadays, but readers in this forum should be aware that not only does a great film noir literature exist, but it's actually quite approachable – both in terms of readability (ie, not too egg headed) and in terms of accessibility (many can found in major book stores). I'd be happy to cite more titles if requested. There are also quite a few good film noir websites. I've often wanted to post these websites, but I have not posted the minimum of 20 posts in order to include URLs in my posts (questionable forum rule?).

In contrast the standard media, one the things I look to the web for are more personal, iconoclastic, and controversial missives. David's disappointment in Detour – one of my all-time favs – is a neat example. Along these lines, I'd like to contribute to two under-represented themes here:

1. On neo-noirs, my absolute favorite has to be Red Rock West (1992). Laura Flynn-Boyle cranks up the femme fatale role a couple of notches, and Nicolas Cage gets caught up in a very Detour-ish torrent of events. Also way up there is Spanish Prisoner (1997). Campbell Scott plays the poor sap along with remarkable performances by Rebecca Pidgeon and Steve Martin.

2. On foreign noir, one of my neatest finds has been Tell Me Something (1997, South Korea). It's been marketed as a horror flick, and while it does have its quotient of blood, its key themes are all noir including murder, a tortured detective, and mysterious women.
 

george kaplan

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Robert,

How about if I keep track of the nominations, but post a new updated list as we go along, instead of editing a single post? Since a single post would be here in the middle of the thread, it would be rather hard to keep track of. I would certainly volunteer to keep track of the nominations and post updates.
 

Rob Tomlin

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Although there may be a certain amount of debate regarding whether it qualifies a true film noir, I have to mention The Night of the Hunter based largely on the fact that I love the film so much. It certainly has many elements of noir, such as voice over, filmed with large dark shadows, crime, etc. The cinematography is unbelievable. Charles Laughton is arguably better here behind the camera than he was in front of it in The Big Clock.

I will also take this opportunity to strongly agree with Glenn, and add Red Rock West here as a "neo-noir" film that deserves a look. A very underrated film.
 

rich_d

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Thought I'd join the discussion.

After reading these posts, it seems clear that there is no one perfect definition of film noir.

But defining things can be difficult in many things. For example, is the film Alien primarily a horror film or a Scifi thriller? Is a specific song primarily blues or is it rock & roll? Point really being that much is certainly subjective. Noir is no different.

To my mind, noir is much like jazz - you know it when you hear it. However, one person hears (interprets) differently than another.

The beginning of noir is French writers/film critics noticing common elements within American films of the 40's. Bleakly shot films of dark shadows, fatalistic choices and hard nosed antagonists. Some say that these films were created by directors influenced by German Expressionist films of the 20's and early 30's. Films by Fritz Lang (M and Dr. Mabuse) and Josef von Sternberg (Underworld) etc. Others say that it is more the reality of wartime America where just another crime-related film didn't seem to warrant much of a tight budget. Films seemed gritty and dark more due to poor lighting and prop budgets than visionary stylistic choices. Perhaps it is more healthy to accept that both areas are important factors and leave it at that. One thing is clear, no one at the time of making these films said "hey, let's make a noir film."

Elements within Noir is also difficult to pinpoint so I'll mention some that I pulled from articles and my reading on the subject. It should be mention that noir films have some of these elements. For example, just because The Big Clock doesn't have a femme fatale doesn't stop it from being Noir.

Some classic Noir elements (note: Herb provided a good list, this is included as a compliment to his list):


Dark mood. Everything from shadows to dimly lit rooms to stark strips of light to offset it to blinking neon signs to 'offputting' camera angles to worn-out hotel carpet to ...
Foreboding Music. The music may be beautiful (a la Theme from Chinatown) but hints at downfall and the protagonist's lament ( I really like that word). More trumpet than violin, more saxophone than oboe, more off-putting fusion than harmonics.
Femme Fatale
Fatalistic elements e.g. if someone had waited one more minute how the results would have been different ...
Greed, crime and the double-cross
A person's past catching up with them
Down and out choices
The everyday person caught up in a nightmare

Even with that list, some films I am undecided on. For example, Hitchcock's The Wrong Man. It has all the elements I've mentioned other than a man's past catching up with him, yet I don't know whether it is Noir or not. I ask myself, isn't it just a crime drama? I can see it either way.

Matter of fact, on an individual film title basis I see little to gain debating whether something is noir or not. That said, I do question the thought structure of those that seek to limit noir (in general) to:

1. Geography (e.g. American Films)

2. Time Period (i.e. it ended around such and such a date)

3. Black & White films only


My primary thought is I don't see how films should be limited in this manner nor for that manner any other form of expression. For example, jazz music is certainly had its birth and development in America. Yet, if someone creates a jazz piece in France or Sweden does it stop becoming jazz?

"Experts" accept that many foreign born and trained directors created many of the "accepted" noir films yet turn a blind eye to those foreign directors that create noir films in another country. Even worse, including films on their lists by American Jules Dassin yet ignoring his film Rififi because it is a French film. Expression is expression and should not be limited to geography.

Same thing with time period. Why muck things up with "tags" such as neo-noir or (even worse) treat expression like political periods such as the cold war - in other words: 'the cold war effectively ended on such and such a date' and 'noir films came to a close with the screening of such and such a film.' Nonsense. Film noir is very much like surrealist films - they were created in the 20's and they are still being created today.

For those that would contend that noir had its hay day many moons ago ... they are correct, but so what? If a noir film is created tomorrow, it still is a noir film and worthy of discussion.

On the Black & white issue, I agree with Herb's comments regarding films like Niagara. I also agree with those that have already discussed Chinatown. I would contend that Chinatown is one of the absolute best examples of a noir film. At the end of the day, each may decide for themselves whether limiting films for discussion is a good strategy/approach for something they are passionate about and wish to discuss with other link-minded people. Then again, there are some that would exclude Chinatown (due to when it was made) even if it had been a black & white film. The bottom line is: inclusion or exclusion?

You choose.
 

Walter Kittel

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Re: George's question concerning the identity of the first film noir. In The Big Book of Noir edited by Ed Gorman, Lee Server, and Martin H. Greenberg in a list of 100 films offered for the reader's consideration, the entry for one of the films reads as follows:

Stranger on the Third Floor. (1940) U.S. Often credited as the "first" film noir; with uncredited script work by Nathanael West.

I suppose the first five films from my earlier post would be my 'great' choices. Have to think about the other questions.

Herb - Nice list of films from a variety of sources. Thanks again for your continued efforts in this regard.

- Walter.
 
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OK, after reading this thread for a few days it quickly became obvious to me that I don't know jack about film noir. I think I'm going to invest in some books about the genre (I believe that Herb recommended some books at one point). I've read several times that film noir evolved from German Expressionism & French Poetic Realism. I'm not a film historian so I was wondering if someone could explain what the elements of German Expressionism and French Realism are?

thanks

Greg
 

Glenn R

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Greg:

There's quite a cottage industry out there on film noir. Let me first list some websites for you. If you type the following titles (including quotations) in Google, the sites will show up at the top:

"Classic Noir Online"
"Full-Text Articles and Essays on Film Noir"
"10 Shades of Noir"
"Dark City: Film Noir and Fiction"
"Martin's Film Noir Page"
"Mike Keaney's Film Noir Home Page"

And here are the noir books I actually own. I've asterisked those I think are good to start with. I look forward to other recommendations to both lists as I'm always on the lookout for more. Have fun:

Robin Buss, French Film Noir (2001)
*Ian Cameron, The Book of Film Noir (1993)
Nicholas Christopher, Somewhere in the Night (1998)
Joan Copjec, Shades of Noir (1993)
*Foster Hirsch, The Dark Side of the Screen: Film Noir (2001)
Foster Hirsch, Detours and Lost Highways: A Map of Neo-Noir (1999)
*Frank Krutnik, In a Lonely Street: Film Noir, Genre, Masculinity (1991)
*Ann E. Kaplan, Women in Film Noir (1999)
Arthur Lyons, Death on the Cheap: B Movies of Film Noir (2000)
James F. Maxfield, The Fatal Woman: Sources of Male Anxiety in American Film Noir 1941-1991 (1996)
Eddie Muller, Dark City: The Lost World of Film Noir (1998)
Eddie Muller, Dark City Dames : The Wicked Women of Film Noir (2002)
James Naremore, More Than Night: Film Noir in Its Contexts (1998)
R. Robert Palmer, Hollywood's Dark Cinema (1994)
Gene D. Phillips, Creatures of Darkness: Raymond Chandler, Detective Fiction, and Film Noir (2000)
*Spencer Selby, Dark City: The Film Noir (1997)
*Alain Silver & Elizabeth Ward, Film Noir Encyclopedia (1992)
*Alain Silver etal, Film Noir Reader, v.1-2 (1996, 1999) [there's also v.3 of interviews which I don't have]
J.P. Telotte, Voices in the Dark: The Narrative Patterns of Film Noir (1989)

Picture books, etc:
Lawrence Bassof, Crime Scenes: Movie Poster Art of the Film Noir (1997)
The Little Black & White Book of Film Noir [quotations] (1992)
Alain Silver & James Ursini, The Noir Style (1999)
Peggy Thompson & Saeko Usukawa, Hard Boiled: Great Lines from Classic Noir Films (1995)

BFI Film Classics series:
Jim Kitses, Gun Crazy (1996)
Dana Polan, In a Lonely Place (1993)
Colin McArthur, The Big Heat (1992)
Richard Shickel, Double Indemnity (1992)
David Thomson, The Big Sleep (1997)

[I also have books on Chandler, Hitchcock, and Lang]
 

Zen Butler

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5 Greatest noirs (however that person defines the genre) (In no order)

Out of the Past
Double Indemnity
Big Sleep. The
Touch of Evil (a perfect coda to that era)
Big Heat, The

3 Historically important 'noirs'
Not sure I'm qualified to answer this in its' literal sense. Important to the genre...

M
Maltese Falcon, The
Big SLeep, The


2 Otherwise interesting 'noir' films
Blade Runner
Gunfighter, The (One of the best "westerns" period. Astonishingly effective cross of genres(western and film noir). Although, I'm a firm beliver that this mix is not a large stretch. Many westerns just carry a noirish element to them, even if not labeled as such.) Almost an Anthony Mann quality to it.
 

Lew Crippen

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I’ll add some nominations, but I don’t think I can categorize them. Especially as, how many times can you nominate the same films in the ‘greatest’ list. Also, in the spirit of Herb’s plea for some foreign films I think I’ll concentrate on those, as I think that the American films will get well represented (I’m taking the Rosenbaum approach, George ;)). If Crawdaddy, Herb, Walter and others with more film noir knowledge disagree and think the genre should be limited to American films—I’ll not bother to protest.

Le Cercle Rouge—saw this last year in the theater, as a restored print was making the rounds. Melville is on target all the way.

The Naked Kiss—I may have missed some of the discussion, but so far Sam Fuller does not appear to be mentioned.

The Element of Crime—OK, I could argue that this is not film noir being in color and being pretty recentl. But Von Trier still limits the palate and otherwise everything is in place.

The Killers—so far (although this one has been discussed) no one has nominated it. Plus I just recently watched it agiain.

Mona Lisa—this too is in color (bright color in fact) and outside of the time period, but a fine performance by Bob Hoskins
 

DaveButcher

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I was gone for the weekend, but now I'm back in town.



It usually stops it from being good Jazz, but music is a different kettle of fish. Music involves one to ten players performing (I'm using an average, I know there are plenty of groups with more or less members), so they have the ability to focus their music on one genre or on many, they can be as diverse as they want. If someone grew up only listening to Jazz, they would probably want to play it, but they could only copy it. It also depends on what type of Jazz they are playing, but for the most part Jazz isn't just playing aseries of notes in a row, it's feeling, it's the same reason white folks can't play the blues (but you're talking to a guy who thinks that the blues ended in the 1950's), we jsut don't have the history to be able to shape that into a sound that you know comes from somewhere real.

Enough about music. I've agree to change the termanology used from Movement to well, something else, but I still have yet to see any strong arguments for it being a genre. Every other genre (Western, Drama, Sci-Fi, Horror, Action, and all of the sub-genres Slasher, Futuristic, War, Coming-of-Age etc.) all have something absolute that links them together. I haven't seen one link that is in every Noir. Other then perhaps a sense of style. I'm fairly comfertable calling noir a style, but I still don't think it does it justice.

Greatest, Important, Others eh?

OK

Greatest:

The Killers (1946)
In A Lonely Place
Raw Deal
D.O.A.
Out Of The Past

Important:

I Wake Up Screaming (some call it the first true noir)
Touch of Evil (some call it last)
Detour
Kiss Tomorrow Goodbye (some call these the meanest noirs ever)

Other:

As has been mentioned before; Night of the Hunter is a movie I consider to be a noir, but I guess some wouldn't.
The proto-noirs of The Roaring Twenties and You Only Live Once.
M is just a great movie, don't know how "noir" is was, but Lang and Lorre would become associated with it later in their careers.
As for modern noirs, I'm pretty sure I'm clear on my position, that being said the only film I can think of that would fall into that category would be Panic Room. Other then the obvious Treasure of the Sierra Madre/The Killing end scene. The whole movie is based on darkness and shadow, strange angles, and a small story about low-criminals trying to make that "one big score". The lead villain is conflicted and yet there is a sense that fate has already determined what would happen the moment they enter the house. It acheives these without reverting to B/W filming, setting it in the forties/fifties, making everyone wear fedoras and say "dame" alot.
 

DaveButcher

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Fuller didn't make a lot of noirs, I'm not sure if Naked Kiss is one, had id been made 10 years earlier there would be no doubt, but the miniskirts, the frankness of the conversations and the sixties ciolor schemes just take me out of it as a noir. As movie, it's great.

Fuller's Pickup on South Street is amongst the best noirs and is available on DVD in a real nice transfer.

I would also say to Herb that the consensus list is good except that you'll only get a true consensus on "B" pictures, as one of your references is "Death on the Cheap" great reference, but it does have a narrower focus.
 

Herb Kane

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Okay this may very well be the toughest post ever, but here goes.

5 Greatest Noirs:

- Double Indemnity (1944)
- In a Lonely Place (1950)
- The Killers (1946)
- The Maltese Falcon (1941)
- Out of the Past (1947)

3 Important Noirs:

- You Only Live Once (1937)
- Laura (1944)
- Raw Deal (1948)

2 Others:

- Pickup on South Street (1953)
- D.O.A. (1950)


It's funny, when put into the context of "important", all of a sudden your favorites might not qualify...
 

george kaplan

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Not to sidetrack this, but I don't think that's necessarily true. There are just as virulent discussions about the definitions of those genres as film noir. Hell, there was a real debate a while back about science fiction (some think films like Star Wars are, some think films like Star Wars aren't). :)

You know, the debate about whether noir needs to be American or in a certain time frame reminded me of an argument I had with a friend in grad school. He was a big fan of a poem called "The Bridge", which took the author something like 20 years to write. Part of what made it so great for him was that it would take so long and so many drafts. I argued that if the author had sat down, and on his first draft, in one day written the exact same poem, that it would be just as great. He said no, it wouldn't be, though most of his argument was the specious "it couldn't be done", since no matter how unlikely, it certainly could be done.

So, my question is this. If I showed you a newly discovered film noir from 1947, and everyone agreed it was a great film noir, and then I revealed that it had been made in 2004, would it suddenly not be a film noir? And if you agree with that, what if I said, "sorry, trick question, the film actually was made in 1947", does it suddenly become film noir again? It might be nearly impossible to make a film in 2004 that could convince viewers that it was made in 1947, but it's certainly a possibility, and would such a film be any less deserving of the film noir title than the exact same film, had it actually been made 57 years earlier?
 

Glenn R

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George -- a gentle suggestion: Might you also want to report the number of nominations per film? It's not too late, and could help separate the great from just the spectacular.

Here are my nominations:

1 Greatest:
Big Sleep
Double Indemnity
Killers (1946)
Murder, My Sweet
Out of the Past

2 Historically important:
Detour
Maltese Falcon
Touch of Evil

3 Other:
Gilda
In a Lonely Place

Besides film titles, actors, directors, and film style, one important noir dimension has barely been mentioned: Writers! Where would noir be without James M. Cain, Raymond Chandler, Dashiell Hammett, Patricia Highsmith, and Cornell Woolrich?

(Here again, I reveal my bookish inclinations.)
 

Rob Tomlin

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I don't think so.

Doesn't the Coen's The Man Who Wasn't There qualify as Noir? I don't think many people would argue that it isn't. Then again, those who consider Film Noir to be a "movement" may argue the point based on when the film was made, since the Film Noir "movement" is arguably over.
 

george kaplan

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Well, it's my fault for not being clearer, and it doesn't help that this is in the middle of a thread.

Given the way this is going, I guess it makes more sense to just tally votes without an official 'nomination' process. So, I will go back and tally the counts.

Lew, I think your the only one who was really 'nominating' instead of voting, so I'm going to just let you revote. Also, in fairness to everyone, Dave, you listed one too many 'important' films, so I'm not going to count the last one.

Again, this is my fault for not being clearer, so I apologize.

I'll be back with an update shortly.
 

george kaplan

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Current voting:

Greatest:
4 - Double Indemnity
4 - Out of the Past
3 - The Big Sleep
3 - The Killers (1946)
2 - The Maltese Falcon
2 - Touch of Evil
2 - In A Lonely Place
1 - Sunset Blvd.
1 - The Big Heat
1 - Raw Deal
1 - D.O.A.
1 - Murder, My Sweet

Important:
2 - M
2 - The Maltese Falcon
2 - Detour
1 - The Big Clock
1 - This Gun For Hire
1 - The Big Sleep
1 - I Wake Up Screaming
1 - Touch of Evil
1 - You Only Live Once
1 - Laura
1 - Raw Deal

Other:
1 - The Night of the Hunter
1 - Red Rock West
1 - Blade Runner
1 - The Gunfighter
1 - The Roaring Twenties
1 - You Only Live Twice
1 - Pickup on South Street
1 - D.O.A.
1 - Gilda
1 - In A Lonely Place

The idea will be to compile a list of 50 films, in the same proportion as the voting (i.e., 25 greatest, 15 important, 10 other) that would make a solid foundation of film noir, and start a challenge to see those of the 50 films you haven't seen. Top vote getters will be in, and I'll do run-off voting as necessary. I'll have to do some tweaking, but those films that are showing up across categories, will get their total votes counted. In other words, D.O.A. actually has 2 votes now. Still, I think it's important to have people vote in the categories, to keep an approximate balance of the different types of films.
 

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