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*** Official Film Noir Discussion Thread (1 Viewer)

Herb Kane

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Speaking of Robert Siodmak, I was poking around at a few of the other regional sites and discovered Dark Mirror (1946) and Christmas Holiday (1944) are available in R2 - two titles we're probably not likely to see released here anytime soon. The Anchor Bay release of The Sprial Staircase is OOP, but I have the R2 Prism version which is very good. I also discovered Fritz Lang's Secret Beyond The Door available in R2 as well. My wife's gonna kill me...

Herb.
 

george kaplan

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I have a multi-part question for people.

First, does everyone here agree that The Maltese Falcon (1941) is the first film noir?

If not, then, in your opinion, what was?

If so, then, in your opinion, who's most responsible for that? Obviously the credit is shared, but who gets more of the credit? Did first time director John Huston basically invent a genre/movement? Was Bogie's tough-boiled portrayal the key? Arthur Edeson the cinematographer? Who?
 

Robert Crawford

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IMO, it was Beast of the City starring Walter Huston and cases can be made for Fury, Stranger on the Third Floor and The Letter all of which came out before The Maltese Falcon.






Crawdaddy
 

Jim_K

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Well from the books that I've read on the subject, Stranger on the Third Floor (1940) is generally considered the first Noir film with credit given as far back as Josef von Sternberg's Underworld (1927)

The roots of Noir is a blending of German Expressionism & French Poetic Realism.

Great thread BTW. Hope it keeps going for a while.
 

Herb Kane

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George… no. While I do agree that The Maltese Falcon was the first perfect example of the genre to surface, I don’t believe it was the first example. The film was perfect in every way beyond a great plot and superb performances but included loads of skewed camera angles, a perfect femme fatale, atmosphere in spades (pun obviously intended) and an ensemble cast of characters that was never topped – ever (primarily the reason it remains one of my favorites).

From the films I have seen, I’d be inclined to say the first noir was You Only Live Once (1937). So to answer your next question and considering the films that have been mentioned here (M, Fury, You Only Live Once as well as a few others that haven’t, the other two Dr. Mabuse films, Liliom with numerous noir qualities and You And Me), I’m of the opinion, serious consideration has to be given to Fritz Lang as a/the leading influence.
 

george kaplan

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Interesting. It's not surprising that those picking a film pre-dating The Maltese Falcon are all picking different films, but I am surprised that everyone (so far) is doing so. For myself, I haven't seen most of the films being mentioned, but while I can think of films before Maltese Falcon that have noir elements, I can't think of one I've seen that I'd call film noir. But apparently I'm alone in that opinion (what else is new? :)).
 

george kaplan

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I think this is an excellent observation, though I have to plead ignorance on key parts. I certainly would agree that Lang was a major influence, but I'm not in a good position to judge his most important work in this regard. I've seen Metropolis, M, and Fury, which certainly are important predecessors to film noir, though I wouldn't personally call any of them film noir. Unfortunately, the next Lang film I've seen after Fury (1936) is The Big Heat (1953), which is certainly film noir, but I'm in no position to make any judgments about his films between those two.

Obviously, I've got some serious film noir gaps. :frowning:

I know we've got a thread listing every film noir (and depending on your pov, then some), but maybe at some point we can try to come up with a shorter list of the 'essential' film noir, to help those of us who want to, to fill in our gaps. I know at some point I need to see Possessed (a western that might qualify as a noir) and others, but with all the other films on my to see list, I really need to narrow this down.

Hell, the more I think about this, the more I think I'm going to start another thread for an 'essential film noir' challenge, part of which will be trying to decide on a list of 'essential' film noirs, which will probably be as contentious to define as film noir itself. :)

Robert,

I assume it makes sense to start such a challenge in a separate thread, but if you think it would fit in better as part of this thread, let me know. I don't want to hijack this thread, nor do I want to start a thread that some mod would decide to merge back into this one. :)
 

Jim_K

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Well The Maltese Falcon certainly deserves credit for popularizing noir, so whether or not it's considered the very first film of it's type doesn't take from it that fact that it's certainly one of the greatest.

Like Herb mentioned, credit should be given to Lang, (also von Sternberg & other german filmmakers) for their influence.

My thoughts are that no single entity or film created the noir movement but rather it evolved from the aforementioned German Expressionist Crime films of the 20's & 30's, the French Crime films of the early 30's & the American Gangster films of the early 30's.

As for a Noir film challenge, I'd love to participate in one. Though it really shouldn't be in this thread IMO.
 

David_Blackwell

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Detour is one of the worst film noirs I have ever seen. I just didn't like the story or the characters. I taped it off TCM and I was even fast forwarding through some parts of the movie.

How does Dangerous Female (the first adaptation of The Maltese Falcon) compare to The Maltese Falcon? I wonder. TCM airs both of those movies this week (Dangerous Female airs on monday morning).

TCM also airs some other film noir during the week like KISS ME DEADLY, SPLIT SECOND, CROSSFIRE, and DETOUR.
 

Herb Kane

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If that's the case, I'd like to suggest keeping the list here. In fact, I have a very unique compilation from a noir writer (Sidney Keywood) who put a list together using ten various sources and then highlighted a "consensus list" whereby listing the films that were mutually agreed upon by at least 8 of the 10 sources.

I'd be happy to list them and the sources... if everyone is interested and in agreement.
 

Robert Crawford

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George,
I really don't want to see another film noir thread, especially if it's going to involve discussion of film noir which is the reason why I started this thread in the first place. Furthermore, I believe any type of listing of film noirs should be maintain here, since this thread will eventually be archived for any of us to go back to and reference specific titles.

Also, any essential listings by individual members will be hotly debated similar to our different interpretations about what is film noir.






Crawdaddy
 

george kaplan

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OK,

Then here I'll post. Since this isn't my own thread, this will be more of a suggestion, than actual rules, but what I was hoping was to get a list of 50 films. The idea being that anyone who'd seen all 50 of these films would have a good handle on film noir (including the controversy). I figured most of us would have seen a number of those, and that would leave a reasonable number left to see for anyone who wanted to participate in the challenge.

I was thinking on collecting 'nominations' for a couple of days (no seconding, thirding, etc. - we don't want to tie up this thread with that nonsense). We could collect nominations here (Robert - this is your call), or people could pm them to me.

I'd ask each person to list

5 Greatest noirs (however that person defines the genre)
3 Historically important 'noirs'
2 Otherwise interesting 'noir' films

Greatest is self-explanatory - you just list what you think are the 5 best ever made.

Historically important are ones that aren't in your top 5, but are otherwise important for someone to have seen. This could include films that you don't feel qualify as a true noir, but are important nonetheless, an important predecessor to noirs, a member of an important subgenre of noir (firsts, lasts, etc.)

Otherwise interesting are just ones that would help broaden one's knowledge of noir. These wouldn't be the best, nor even the most important, but otherwise interesting (e.g., a western that is a noir, a sex-role reversed noir, a spoof of noirs, etc.)

Again, though, each person decides for themselves. I'd put Chinatown in the Greatest category. Others might consider it neo-noir which is historically important and put it in the Historically important category. Others might consider it so unrelated to true noir that it would fall into the Otherwise interesting category, and still others might not think it belongs in any three.

Anyway, I'd put these all together, and develop a ballot for later in the week, we're people would make their final votes. Then I'd tabulate the results, and we'd have our list for the challenge.

PLEASE: Do not post any nominations in this thread until Robert says it's OK. He may decide he'd prefer you to send me pms. However, feel free to please continue the general discussion about film noir. :)
 

Herb Kane

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So here is an interesting spin on things from the opposite end. Just to be clear, this is NOT my project. The following list was compiled by Sidney Keywood - (http://www.gaskcadd.com/ssk_pix/FilmNoir.htm) - There were upwards of 800 titles on his list and the following is a collective group whereby (at least) 8 of the sources listed below indicated the title as “film noir”. There were also a healthy number of titles listed between 1960-1965 but there was a consensus of only 6 titles between that timeframe:

Blast of Silence (1961)
Brainstorm (1965)
Cape Fear (1962)
The Manchurian Candidate (1962)
The Naked Kiss (1964)
Underworld U.S.A. (1961)

It’s also interesting (and ironic) that considering there are only a handful of titles that received a unanimous pick (from all 10 sources), Double Indemnity, Out Of The Past, The Maltese Falcon aren’t among them, yet The Set-Up (which is what initiated this debate) received all 10 eligible votes.


CONSENSUS FILM NOIR (1940 thru 1959)

Sources:

E-Film Noir Encyclopedia (Silver & Ward, '92)
S-Somewhere in the Night (Christopher, '97)
D--Dark City (Selby, '84)
C-Film Noir: A Comprehensive, Illustrated Reference (Stephens, '95)
B-Death on the Cheap, B Movies of Film Noir (Lyons, '00)
G-Film Noir Guide (Keaney, '03)
T-Film Noir: Films of Trust and Betrayal (Duncan, ’02)
H-Dark Side of the Screen: Film Noir (Hirsch, ’01)
P- Panorama of American Film Noir (Translated by Hammond, ’02)
I-Internet Movie Database (7-Jan-04)

IESDCBGT P Act of Violence (1949)
IESDC GTHP Angel Face (1952)
IESDCBGT Armored Car Robbery (1950)
IESDC GTHP Asphalt Jungle, The (1950)
IESDCBGTH Beware, My Lovely (1952)
IE DCBGTH Beyond a Reasonable Doubt (1956)
IESDC GTHP Big Carnival, The (1951)….Ace in the Hole
IESDC GTHP Big Clock, The (1948)
IESDCBGTH Big Combo, The (1955)
IESDC GTHP Big Heat, The (1953)
IESDC GTHP Big Sleep, The (1946)
IESDCBGTHP Black Angel (1946)
IE DCBGT P Black Tuesday (1954)
IESDC GTHP Blue Dahlia, The (1946)
IESDC GTHP Body and Soul (1947)….Affair of the Heart, An
IESDCBGT P Border Incident (1949)
IESDCBGT P Born to Kill (1947)….Deadlier than the Male
IESDCBGT P Brasher Doubloon, The (1947)….High Window
IESDC GTHP Breaking Point, The (1950)
IESDC GTHP Brute Force (1947)
IESDC GTHP Call Northside 777 (1948)
IESDCBGT Captive City, The (1952)
IE DCBGT P Cause for Alarm! (1951)
IE DCBGT P Chase, The (1946)
IESDCBGT P City That Never Sleeps (1953)
IESDC GTH Clash by Night (1952)
IESDC GTHP Conflict (1945)
IESDC GTHP Cornered (1945)
IESDC GTHP Criss Cross (1949)
IE DCBGT P Crooked Way, The (1949)
IESDC GTHP Crossfire (1947)
IESDCBGT Cry Danger (1951)
IESDC GTHP Dark Corner, The (1946)
IESDC GTHP Dark Mirror, The (1946)
IESDC GTHP Dark Passage (1947)
IESDCBGT P Dark Past, The (1948)….Hearsay
IESDC GT P Dead Reckoning (1947)
IESDCBGT Desperate (1947)
IESDCBGT Detour (1945)
IESDCBGTH D.O.A. (1950)
IESDC GTHP Double Indemnity (1944)
IESDC GTH Edge of Doom (1950)….Stronger Than Fear
IESDC GTHP Enforcer, The (1951)….Murder, Inc.
IESDC GTHP Fallen Angel (1945)
IE DCBGT P Fear (1946)
IESDCBGT P Fear in the Night (1947)
IESDC GTHP File on Thelma Jordon, The (1949)
IESDCBGT Follow Me Quietly (1949)
IESDC GT P Force of Evil (1948).….Tucker's People
IESDCBGT Framed (1947)….Paula
IESDC GTHP Gilda (1946)
IESDC GT P Glass Key, The (1942)
IESDCBGT Guilty Bystander (1950)
IESDCBGTHP Gun Crazy (1950)
IESDCBGT He Ran All the Way (1951)
IESDCBGT P He Walked by Night (1948)
IESDC GT P High Wall (1947)...Highwall, The
IESDCBGT Hitch-Hiker, The (1953)
IESDCBGT P Hollow Triumph (1948)….Scar, The
IESDC GT P House of Strangers (1949)
IESDC GTHP House on 92nd Street, The (1945)
IESDC GTH Human Desire (1954)….Human Beast, The
IESDCBGT I Married a Communist (1949)..Woman on Pier 13
IESDC GTHP In a Lonely Place (1950)
IESDCBGT I, the Jury (1953)
IESDCBGT I Was a Communist for the FBI (1951)
I SDCBGTHP Jeopardy (1952)
IESDCBGT Johnny Angel (1945)
IESDC GT P Johnny O'Clock (1947)
IESDCBGT P Journey Into Fear (1942)
IESDCBGTHP Kansas City Confidential (1952)….Secret Four
IESDC GTHP Key Largo (1948)
IESDC GTHP Killers, The (1946)…..Man Alone, A
IESDCBGTH Killer's Kiss (1955)
IESDCBGTH Killing, The (1956)
IESDCBGTHP Kiss Me Deadly (1955)
IESDC GTHP Kiss of Death (1947)
IESDCBGT P Kiss the Blood Off My Hands (1948)
IESDC GTHP Kiss Tomorrow Goodbye (1950)
IESDC GTHP Lady from Shanghai, The (1948)….Black Irish
IESDC GTHP Lady in the Lake (1947)
IE DCBGT P Lady Without Passport, A (1950)
IESDC GTHP Laura (1944)
IES C GTHP Leave Her to Heaven (1945) [COLOR]
IESDCBGTH Lineup, The (1958)
IESDCBGT P Locket, The (1946)
IE DCBGTHP M (1951)
IESDC GT P Macao (1952)
IESDC GTHP Maltese Falcon, The (1941)
IE DCBGT P Manhandled (1949)
IESDC GT P Mask of Dimitrios, The (1944)
IESDC GT P Mildred Pierce (1945)
IESDC GTHP Ministry of Fear (1944)
IESDCBGT P Mob, The (1951)….Remember That Face
IESDC GTHP Murder, My Sweet (1944)….Farewell My Lovely
IESDCBGTH My Name is Julia Ross (1945)
IESDC GT P Mystery Street (1950)….Murder at Harvard
IESDCBGTHP Narrow Margin, The (1952)
IESDCBGT New York Confidential (1955)
IES C GTHP Niagra (1953) [COLOR]
IESDC GTHP Night and the City (1950)
IESDCBGT Night Editor (1946)….Tresspasser, The
IESDCBGT Nightfall (1956)
IESDC GTH Night Has a Thousand Eyes,The (1948)
IESDCBGTH Nightmare (1956)
IESDC GTHP Nightmare Alley (1947)
IESDCBGT 99 River Street (1953)….Crosstown
IESDCBGT P Nocturne (1946)
IESDC GT P Notorious (1946)….Alfred Hitchcock's Notorious
ESDCBGTH Odds Against Tomorrow (1959)
IESDCBGTHP On Dangerous Ground (1951)
IESDCBGT P One Way Street (1950)
IESDC GTHP Out of the Past (1947)….Build My Gallows High
IESDC GTHP Panic in the Streets (1950)
IESDCBGTHP Phantom Lady (1943)
IESDC GTH Pickup on South Street (1953)
IESDC GTH Pitfall (1948)
IES C GTHP Possessed (1947)
IESDC GTHP Postman Always Rings Twice, The (1946)
IESDCBGT Private Hell 36 (1954)
IESDCBGTHP Prowler, The (1951)
IESDCBGT Pushover (1954)
IESDC GT P Racket, The (1951)
IESDCBGTHP Raw Deal (1948)
IESDCBGTH Reckless Moment, The (1949)
IE DCBGT P Red Light (1949)
IESDC GT P Ride the Pink Horse (1947)
IESDCBGT Roadblock (1951)
IESDCBGT Scandal Sheet (1952)….Dark Page, The
IESDC GTH Scarlet Street (1945)
IESDCBGT P Second Woman, The (1951)….Ellen; 12 Miles Out
IESDC GT P Secret Beyond the Door (1948
IESDCBGTHP Set-Up, The (1949)
IESDC GTHP Shadow of a Doubt (1943)
IESDC GT P Shanghai Gesture, The (1941)
IESDCBGT Shock (1946)
IESDC GTHP Side Street (1950)
IESDCBGT Sleeping City, The (1950)….Web of the City
IESDCBGT P Sniper, The (1952)
IESDCBGTH So Dark the Night (1946)
IESDC GT P Somewhere in the Night (1946)
IESDC GTHP Sorry, Wrong Number (1948)
IESDCBGT Southside 1-1000 (1950)
IESDC GT P Strange Love of Martha Ivers, The (1946)
IESDC GTHP Stranger, The (1946)….Date with Destiny
IESDCBGT Stranger on the Third Floor (1940)
IESDC GTHP Strangers on a Train (1951)
IESDCBGT Street of Chance (1942)
IESDC GTHP Street with No Name, The (1948)
IESDC GTHP Sudden Fear (1952)
IESDCBGT Suddenly (1954)
IESDC GTHP Sunset Boulevard (1950)
IESDC GT P Suspense (1946)
IESDC GTH Sweet Smell of Success (1957)
IESDCBGT Tension (1949)
IESDC GTHP They Live by Night (1948)….Twisted Road, The
IESDCBGT P Thief, The (1952)
IESDCBGT P Thieves' Highway (1949)….Collision
IESDC GTHP This Gun for Hire (1942)
IESDCBGT P T-Men (1947)
IESDCBGT P Too Late for Tears (1949)….Killer Bait
IESDC GTH Touch of Evil (1958)
IE DCBGT P Try and Get Me (1951)…..Sound of Fury, The
IESDC GT P Turning Point, The (1952)….This Is Dynamite!
IESDCBGT P Undercover Man, The (1949)….Chicago Story
IESDC GT P Undercurrent (1946)
IESDCBGT P Union Station (1950)
IESDCBGT Unknown Man, The (1951)…..Bradley Mason Story
IESDCBGT Vicki (1953)
I SDCBGT P Web, The (1947)
IESDCBGT When Strangers Marry (1944)….Betrayed
IESDCBGT Where Danger Lives (1950)
IESDC GTHP Where the Sidewalk Ends (1950)
IESDC GTH While the City Sleeps (1956)
IESDC GTHP White Heat (1949)
IESDCBGTHP Window, The (1949)
IE DCBGTP Witness to Murder (1954)
IESDC GTHP Woman in the Window, The (1944)
IESDCBGT P Woman on the Run (1950)
IESDCBGT World for Ransom (1954)
IESDC GTH Wrong Man, The (1956)


Personally speaking, I think the list is far too narrow and excludes titles (all of which I have seen) – which I consider to be some of the finest examples of the genre – just to name a few; Caged, The Blue Gardenia, The Champion, The Desperate Hours, House of Bamboo, Impact, The Letter, Nora Prentiss, The Phenix City Story, A Place in the Sun, Quicksand, Railroaded, 711 Ocean Drive, The Third Man… just to name a few. But there should be very little room to argue in that what appears on that list is absolute quintessential noir.
 

Robert Crawford

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George,
If you volunteer to edit a specific "Nomination" post with all of the nominations, I will edit out individual posts, once a post's nominations have been captured and added to the "Nomination" post.






Crawdaddy
 

Robert Crawford

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Herb,
I'm afraid, any such listing could be legitimately argued with, but that's part of the fun for putting such a list together.









Crawdaddy
 

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