*** Official ETERNAL SUNSHINE OF THE SPOTLESS MIND DiscussionThread (1 Viewer)

[Dennis Castro]

This film is best described as a brilliant mind fuck. If you have unsettled issues with a past relationship this film will seriously mess with you. I was a disaster walking out of the theater and I am still a little shaken. There are some scenes in this film that cut a bit too close to the bone. I loved it.I will see this again because I think it requires a second viewing.

Hopefully this film will be remembered it Oscar time but sadly I doubt it will. I could see Winslet getting a nod for best actress, Kauffman a nod for best original screen play and the film a nod for an Oscar as well.

 

[Bob Turnbull]

Absolutely. I used 'doomed' in reference to the end result (the breakup) and not the relationship as a whole.

Our good and bad experiences are all weaved into our general makeup and can't really be separated. An example of this is when we meet Joel at the beginning of the movie, he has never heard the song "My Darling Clementine". Later on though, we learn at the BBQ that he had fond rememberances of it as a child. So once the 'bad' memories were erased, he lost some of his 'good' ones too...

 

[Stephen_L]

What an absolutely brilliant film. Kaufman's films have all been marvelously convoluted (He doesn't make films, he makes Moebius strips) but this one had such warmth and heart. I was really emotionally involved in Joel's plight, watching precious memories slip away, fighting to keep them. Then when Joel and Clementine meet with their tapes in hand and know how the story will end, then choose to take the journey anyway. . . dang, that is so powerful.

Some details on the story side. It seems clear to me that Joel at least has been erased several times, or at least twice. The missing pages in the journal, the ease at which he's allowed into the doctor's office (I'm guessing they considered this warantee service)suggest this.

And I was expecting a dark ending, but it was so romantic yet unsentimental. It is the plight we all face. We all know how our stories will end, with death. But the wise don't let that darken their lives. They just enjoy the journey.

Having seen the film and read the spoilers earlier in the thread, I like the film without the mentioned scene. I do believe the film's conclusion speaks to the ability to change. Not that Joel and Clementine will end happily; I don't believe it because each is exasperated by the same things that draw them to each other. But I felt the revelation of the tapes taught them that the memory of love even when it ends badly, was worth keeping.

I give this film a solid 10/10. I'm catching it again!

 

[Derek Miner]

In his journal, Joel wrote something like, "this appears to be my first entry in two years." I thought this implied that he and Clementine had been together for two years and removing all traces of Clem meant ripping out all the pages from the time they were together. As for the Lacuna office, it seemed to me that the Doctor was trying to make the best of a bad situation, trying to avoid a scene, not because he knew Joel as a previous customer, but because he knew him from Clementine's mementos.

 

[Stephen_L]

Derek, that's a legit interpretation, though I think recognizing him as a previous customer works just as well.

 

[ChrisMatson]

My wife and I loved it!

Nothing in the movie made me think that Joel or Clementine had multiple procedures. I think the resistance comment was in reference to him making attempts to hide the memory during the procedure--it worked in the beginning, but was failing in the middle. Perhaps more professional technicians would not have had the same problems that Frank and Patrick ran into.

The movie shows how life experiences and relationships may be difficult, but make us who we are--and in the end we can't escape our past.

 

[JonZ]

I didnt like Being John M and I havent seen Adaptation, but this was a pretty amazing film.The more I think about it, the more I like it.I got the feeling the that it wasnt running in chronological order when she damaged his car.

About 10 peopel walked out of the show I saw, most were older.

Also have to mention what a great onscreen romance this was.Definitely a odd couple, but I really belived these two people belonged together.(The smothering scene got a good laugh from my G/F and I since weve smothered each other before )

I also feel the resisting was due to Joel finally realizing that the memories, despite tha pain of having them were too precious to let go.In my old age I find myself quoting Star Trek more and more...
"Dammit, Bones, you're a doctor. You know that pain and guilt can't be taken away with the wave of a magic
wand. They're things we carry with us -- the things that make us who we are." or something like that

:star: :star: :star: and 1/2 out of 4 :star:s

 

[Chuck Mayer]

I'll write the review tomorrow. Honesty is the buzzword regarding ESSM to me. I felt it was touchingly honest. Take all the mindgames apart, and I really cared about the characters and their history (moreso than their future).

Great film, and a great romance,
Chuck

 

[Seth Paxton]

SPOILERS, but this is the discussion thread so its your own fault.

Quentin,

I didn't read the film the same as the coda. In fact I felt like the whole Dunst action was Kaufman altering the tone from the "destined to repeat" view that we might expect to one of "enlightened optimism" that comes from knowing how their relationship will progress.

To me that was saying two things - obviously the couple was destined for each other, finding themselves attracted to each other more than once and likely to do so again given the chance, but also it was saying that 2 people that are meant for each other can still screw it up by losing sight of that fact.

Clearly Joel regrets his memory erasure and decides to keep her. And since she also goes back to that same place to meet him again, as well as doing most of the work in initiating the 2nd contact, we can assume that she had a similar erasure experience. Both of them love each other deep down but both allowed that love to get covered over by more trivial issues and by taking things the wrong way.

The lesson to all of us is that we need to be careful to not lose that appreciation with the mundane aspects of day to day living in a relationship. If only we had the same road map of future troubles we might maintain our relationships successfully as well.


And perhaps the removed coda simply indicates that they were destined to be together and that they finally were able to break the cycle of erasure thanks to Dunst. It could be that it was taken out simply because it was redundent in telling us that they would continue to return to each other since we can assume that even after only one erasure. It's Dunst who breaks that cycle and I think that moment is meant to be unique to any possible repeating cycle (like the Matrix films).


Man, was Carrey great. I felt so terrible for him each time he lost a Winslet memory. It's got to be one of the most romantic films I've ever seen. Really touching and heartfelt.

 

[Seth Paxton]

it seemed to me that he meant DURING the procedure he was developing a resistance to it. I don't remember hearing the other line about erase you first but that would likely have been said inside his brain to his memory version of her in a imagined fight during the procedure.


There is also a problem with the "repeat customer" view. Barging in doesn't really imply special treatment for a repeat, and in fact Dunst is on the phone explaining that they frown upon repeating too quickly as it is unhealthy. I think Wilkinson just understands the special emotion AND RECOGNIZES JOEL because he just erased him from her memories the week or two before.

The problem is that the other 2 main workers, especially the master Ruffalo have zero knowledge of him and his life. As they stalk him Wood doesn't even know what he looks like, Ruffalo has to say "that's him" and it sounds very much like he is going simply from that brief meeting in the office. On top of that they have no idea what his apartment is like or what they might find in his fridge. Plus, wouldn't Wood have fallen in love with Kate the first time? I can hear you saying "well, he got her erased too" but wouldn't that be a big red flag for Wilkinson and make him very reluctant to let him be involved in Carrey or Winslet's cases? Sure he was willing to clear up his own problems with Dunst but I strongly doubt he would be cool with what Wood was doing.

I just saw zero indicators that this was more than the first time, and that was enough to realize that they would always find their way back together, that they were meant for each other. Dunst gives them the special gift of seeing the front and back end of the relationship at the same time which gives them a perspective that changes their story from endless tragedy to one of unique optimism. They are blessed with something that no other couples get, prior knowledge of the issues they will face. I think that makes it a lot more likely that they will stay together this time.

 

[Tom Meyer]

I couldn't agree more. Every time he tried & failed to save a memory from erasure, I got a little lump in my throat.

Best movie I've seen so far this year and it's gonna be hard to top.

 

[Bob Turnbull]

Pretty much agree with everything you said Seth. One thing though...If Mary (Dunst's character) breaks the cycle then why the repeated scenes at the end that imply Joel and Clementine continually erasing each other?

Although there's a few scenes that 'could' be taken to mean this wasn't the first erasure, I would agree that it was (even though in a previous post I was doubting that initial impression I had during the movie).

As much as I enjoyed all the other characters, I found myself always looking forward to getting back in Joel's head. Not just to see the inventive ways the memories were shown to disappear, but moreso to just follow along with snippets of the couples relationship.

 

[Quentin]

I can see that take, Seth. The great thing about Kauffman films is the many possible takes.

I, personally, think that the repetition of the "running through the snow" moment at the very end of the film (I think it cuts and repeats around 6 times before credits roll) is an indication that nothing they do will change things - they will always end up hating each other and erasing the memory, and always get back together.

I would have believed the Dunst move is unique and changes everything if the multiple runs through the snow hadn't happened AFTER that.

But, that doesn't mean I dislike your optimism...

 

[Seth Paxton]

As I said, I don't recall these. Perhaps it was after the credits began since my wife drug me out of there early (she is only willing to wait for the whole film some of the time).

 

[Quentin]

Take a look again, Seth.

Also, Joel's reply to Clem's statement that they will end up hating the same things about each other is a simple "Ok." Not a, "No. We can do it right now." "Ok" implies to me that he has grown - he doesn't care if they break up again and again - what's important is the time they are together. The Sisyphean fate is worth the moments they share.

 

[Vickie_M]

I loved this movie! My husband loved this movie! I'm right there with most everyone else: it will be at or near the top of my list at the end of the year. I keep thinking about it. It haunts me too. My favorite single shot is the two of them on the ice, seen from above. There are two big cracks in the ice in the shape of an X (marks the spot) and to me the X and the cracks themselves tell the entire story of the relationship. Gondry rules. Kaufman rules. Everything about it rules.

We're seeing it again in a couple of days.

Seth, you said this in the review thread:


First, I'm sorry you've only been able to see 2 films! Second, I agree with everything you say about this movie. Third, I especially agree with the above, including the Dogville reference.

"Oh my darling
Oh my darling
Oh my darling Clementine
You are lost and gone forever
Dreadful sorry Clementine"

That song is going to be so very special to me for the rest of my life.

 

[Chuck Mayer]

Seth,
I agree with many of your sentiments. One, I believe it's the first erasure. Howard simply saw the NEED in Carrey and responded to that, not any preferential treatment. That said, the film COULD be interpreted in another way, which is the hallmark of brilliant writing - a alack of harshly defined boundaries. I really need to write my review before I come back in here

I want to reiterate how nice it was to see Kate again. She's one of my VERY favorites Great acting all around, from Jim as the anchor to the tertiary characters.

Take care,
Chuck

 

[Alex Spindler]

I had a bit of a different take. As with Seth, I saw there being only one erasure from both people. Although confusing, and the 'end as the beginning' has you confused, I think it is well supported.

But I got out of the ending was that, though they acknowledge that their relationship was doomed to failure, the path to get to that failure was littered with golden moment that made the pain worthwhile.
If you think about the concept of erasing painful memories, you realize that it is made at the worst moment in the relationship. It comes when your dog has died, or you girlfriend has left you, or you realize that you and your spouse are no longer in love. At that point, you only recognize the pain and faults in the relationship, evidenced by the mean spiritedness in their tapes.

The uniqueness of Joel was that he was experiencing the loss of those memories. It forced his jaded mind to see the beautiful and the bad, and it really awakened in him the understanding that the journey they took had moments of true happiness that his life now lacked. Clutching at the end to "Meet me in Montauk", he placed a bit of hope that he would not be relieved entirely of the memory of their relationship.

Interestingly enough, Clem was also in Montauk at the time. Had she also struggled to keep the memories as they were disintegrated? Do all people who have their memories erased all experience that kind of conscious loss and come out the other end wanting for something missing? Had Clem also locked onto Montauk as the source of something special? Had she been going there day after day in search of that missing something, chalking it up to her own moody whims? Just think - Joel had been out of his procedure just one day and he had a strong enough urge to ditch work (I believe he called it uncharacteristic of him) and go to Montauk.

I came away feeling that their relationship would eventually breakdown, but that both may have left imbedded in their psyche enough appreciation for those lost moments that they wouldn't seek to have the good thrown out with the bad again.

I was blown away by this film, as it appears most everyone was. The casting excellent all around, especially a subdued Carrey. Their moment of goodbye was very emotional, especially the regret that he had run away just prior. It felt very true, as did most of the film.


I feel so spoiled being able to witness so many great films.

 

[Stephen_L]

Alex, I believe you hit the nail on the head. Joel and Clementine are both drawn to each other and yet so different that sustained happiness is probably not possible. What the film's conclusion shows is that both agree to reenter a relationship, knowing it will end badly, but willing to 'enjoy the ride' and treasure the good times they will share. They will break up, but not seek to erase their experience together.

This is a very touching gesture. In reality, all relationships end 'badly'; even long happy marriages end with the death of a partner and devastating loss felt by the survivor. But that pain does not negate the happiness shared along the way.

I remember a scene in the film 'Shadowlands' where Anthony Hopkins Lewis is enjoying time with his new bride who knows her life is short. Debra Wingers character reminds him that though it won't last, the brevity of their time together should make them appreciate their moments more.

 

[Vickie_M]

Upon first viewing, I'm of the opinion that they had each only had the procedure done once. However, playing with the theory that maybe it had been done once or several times before, that very well could be WHY Clementine is so weird and flaky and as she says herself, fucked up. It could be WHY Joel is so distant and introverted and shy and a bit flaky himself. Maybe they started out as fairly "normal" people (well, as "normal" people go). It could also be why Clem suggested going to the Charles River with Joel.

So many scenes flash through my mind that are awe-inspiring. The quick shot of the elderly woman woefully sobbing in the chair, for instance. What is her story? It's just a glance, so we have to make one up. She's just lost her husband of 40 years. Every cell in her body is saturated with grief, so she wants to get rid of the pain. But how would that work? If you just go back to right before he died, she'd always be wondering where he was. He obviously up and left, which itself would be grief-inducing. I assume that Lacuna can't implant memories, they can only erase. To erase their entire marriage would mean erasure of 40 years of HER life too. How could you even live with such holes in your memory? After being married just 20 years, I couldn't imagine such a procedure, because my husband is my soul mate, and I am his. Everything about me, at this point in my life, is tied in in one way or another with him. I couldn't erase every trace even if I tried. That lady crying haunts me, as does the woman with the lost/dead pet. They're going to lose all the wonderful times, all the happiness. Just like Joel and Clementine.

I love this movie.