*** Official CONSTANTINE Discussion Thread (1 Viewer)

[John Doran]

1) there are undeniable catholic, or at the very least, christian elements to the theology. the spear that killed christ - recognized in the film as god's son - is a key item; a statue of mary is prominent in one scene; there is a priest who is an exorcist; there is lucifer; water plays as central a role in the film as it does in catholicism. and so on.

i did not imply that it was a wholly catholic theology, but only that catholic theological traditions lay at the movie's heart; the fact that there are numerous departures therefrom in no way makes my claim any less true.

2) the movie is most assuredly not essentially manichaean, and is only incidentally manichaean to the extent that mani's original philosophy included some bastardized christian themes along with its "essentially" chaldean folklore and astrology as a concession to the historical contingency of christianity's incipient influence in the east. that is, if he ewanted to make his thought appealing on a widespread basis, he had to throw in some ad hoc concepts and themes familiar to the christians he would be trying to convert.

i can only imagine that the feature of the movie that you are picking out by your claim is the movie's use of a force of good and a force of evil, which is about all that anyone knows about manichaeanism these days. but, in mani's philosophy, those two powers were equal, and were each eternal and in endless opposition. in the film, however, the devil is obviously created by god, and is obviously consigned to a hell not of his own creation.

what's more, mani despised the mystery of christianity and sought to develop his own philosophy on what he believed to be comprehensively forensic reasoning, which seems to be the pretty straightforward opposite of both the movie and the comic's reliance on the unexplained.

which means that, in my estimation, there's way more catholicism in the movie than there is manichaeanism.

 

[Rich Malloy]

I disagree, but then again I don't care. The movie sucked, and whatever incidental theology was thrown in to establish the rules of its universe was slapdash and simpleminded.

[Full disclosure: I'm not simply angry that I paid to waste my time on this throwaway flick, but the real reason I went was to catch a glimpse of the trailer for "A Scanner Darkly"... which to my dismay was not screened.]

 

[JamieD]

Edited.

Will be staying out of most threads I think from here on out for a while. The attitude of this forum in general seems to have really gone to a negative place over the last 6 months.

 

[Rich Malloy]

Only a tool would claim for himself infallibility, but I'm fairly confident that on the universal barometer of that which sucks and that which sucks not, the arrow pegs to the sucky side for "Constantine".

Of course, another strong defense such as yours just might change my mind.

 

[Holadem]

Well Rich, his defense is barely less stellar and articulate than the argument you put forth.

John, thanks for ze explanation.

--
H

 

[John Doran]

pas de probleme, mon ami.

 

[Shawn_McD]

The Chair.

I thought the whoel thing was that it was an 'Artifact', being that many people who died on it passed to Hell (criminals), so its power to transport and such was of great magnatude. The whole bits about 200 souls have passed through this chair sort of made it a "Highway to Hell".


The Priest.

I think he was put in just to show there was others like Constantine, also to show how the demons could use your Vices/Sins against you, bu tnot directly killing you. The priests Vice was drinking, so when he got nervous he needed a swig...so the demon used his vice by making him think he wasnt getting a drink, an illusion.

 

[Holadem]

Makes sense except a better script should have done a better job of conveying that information. I don't at all buy the notion that the numerous unanswered questions this movie has were intentional, from where I stand it looks more like a hackjob as far as writing goes. They just never figured out how to convey information visually, so rather than having the movie grind to a halt every 3 seconds for 10 minutes of expository dialogue, they decided to just leave in scenes that make no bleeping sense to the uninitiated.

In the end, I am still a fan of this flick because the subject matter fascinates me, and I find the potential of this character and his universe enormous.

The theater was packed when I saw it, which is only a sign of great anticipation of course (good trailer), the real box office test will be next weekend. I hope it pulls thru, I want a better written sequel.

--
H

 

[Alex Spindler]

My take was that the cat was a conduit specific to Isabel. He wanted to see if she was residing in hell, so she took something familiar to her and then went across.

With the chair, I think the point was that it was powerful and a way for him to see whatever he was seeking. He first went to ask for use of the chair when he saw the demons in the open. I think his goal was to use the chair to get an omniscient view of whatever hell was up to, which I don't think a cat could do.


Seemed pretty solidly explained to me.

 

[Dana Fillhart]

With regard to the chair, people seem to be making the assumption that Reeve's purpose was identical as the earlier trip into hell - it wasn't. He used the cat to peep into Hell to find out if Isabel was down there. With the chair, he wanted specifically to find the one who held the Spear of Destiny. It reminded me a lot of Professor Xavier in X-Men - to read an individual mind or control it to some degree he could do it anywhere, but for locating people or to control lots of people he needed the help of that special room (can't remember what it's called). For Constantine, he can skirt around Hell via simple water and the averge cat, but for locating someone with an artifact, he needed a heavy-duty artifact of his own.

 

[Dana Fillhart]

(Wow, Alex, great minds and all ... )

 

[DustinLC]

With all the talks of Gabriel and no talk of her role in the movie, I'm starting to wonder if I got the whole main plot wrong:

I assumed that you need 3 things to bring Lucifer's son on earth who in returns will bring hell on earth:

The blood of Christ which is in the spear of destiny
Help of a strong pyschic
Help from god

Now one and two is clear. 2 is the reason that Isabel killed herself because she knows what she's being used for. Now 3, I thought was Gabriel's role. Though it's not directly help from god, but she's an angel and thus "god's helper." She wanted to bring hell on earth.

I assumed that once the spear of destiny was discovered by accident, Gabriel took the opportunity to carry out her plan. At the end, Lucifer found out the plot and prevented the birth of his son on earth.

 

[Quentin]

That's right, Dustin.

 

[James_Kiang]

I seem to remember it was two things needed: the powerful psychic and divine assistance. The blood of Christ from the Spear of Destiny would fulfill the "divine assistance" requirement. Gabriel was not really required for the Son Of Satan to enter the realm of man, he/she/it simply wanted that to happen to make man Worthy in his eyes of God's gift.

 

[DustinLC]

This is why I said I might be getting the whole main plot wrong. I thought it was obvious that Gabriel was initiator of the whole plan after the spear of destiny was found. She came up with the idea of bringing Mammon on earth to fulfill her plan to provide a more difficult test to see who makes it to heaven. Her whole speech at the end about rapiest and killers making it to heaven simply by asking for forgiveness make me believe that she's planned the whole thing and all the demons plus Mammon are just benefiting from it. And why would Mammon refuse the idea .

 

[Quentin]

I think Gabriel is absolutely the one who sets things in motion. BTW, nice pic/foreshadow in the anti-bible of an angel holding a plummeting spear over the body that delivers Mammon.

I think the spear is needed in order for Mammon to possess someone...but, the psychic and Gabriel are needed in order for him to totally pass through.

 

[Malcolm R]

If the Spear of Destiny is wholly an evil object, why was it hidden?

Why didn't they take it into Mordor and toss it in a volcano?

 

[Holadem]

During the first exorcism, Contantine warned the helpers not to look at the demon. The moron who looked, did his hair turn white or was I seeing things?

--
H

 

[John Doran]

you were seeing things: you were seeing his hair turn white.

 

[Robert Anthony]

That was actually VERY freaky to me. He looked, he fell back and started just scrambling, screaming, as his hair turned white sort of slowly. And then it was just mumbling and hard slapping at his head. Tripped me out.