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Official Confirmation: SW Episode III DVD on November 1st (1 Viewer)

Chuck Mayer

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I'm not sure I understand the fascination with the Dagobah scene. I'd like to see it as well, but it has nothing to do with the story in the PT or OT. Yoda has no previous ties to the planet, and without an establishing scene with QGJ explaining the "living force" concept to Yoda, it's simply a fanboy gift (although why fanboys would think that's a key scene is beyond me). The Rebellion scenes are far more key to the macro-plot.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, Yoda is a great character, but Lucas relied on him as an applause button and fanboy wanker in the PT, to the mild detriment of the character (IN MY OPINION - many of my good friends here love him and all of his scenes).

I do agree with the sentiments regarding the excellent pacing of EIII and wanting it preserved. And the with poetic (and fantastic) ending of Anakin, Leia, and Luke. I assume Yoda will come before that, if restored.

I am excited for the deleted scenes...as deleted scenes.

Take care,
Chuck
 

TravisR

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scene runs longer than 10 or 20 seconds so (in my mind) it wouldn't mess up the pacing. That being said, just showing the Skywalker family in a montage at the end probably is the best idea. If I remember correctly, they cut the scene because there's a ton of epilogues and they wanted to end the movie.

Either way, that scene ain't back in the movie so I ain't seeing it. :)
 

Kevin Lamb

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I'd really only want the Dagobah
sequence to be included in the movie if they had Obi-Wan and baby Luke dropping Yoda off to go with the "there's something familiar about this place" line from Luke in ESB.
But since the scene wasn't filmed that way I'm glad its left as deleted.
 

Chuck Mayer

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That's partly it. And it's partly the fans (and Lucas wanting to please them).

What MADE Yoda in ESB something special was the "Wars do not make one great." I just feel that many of the fans built up such an anticipation of seeing him fight (seeing him do ANYTHING) that Lucas subverted that ideal for some crowd-pleasing moments. It diminished the character a bit.

I like the idea of the Dagobah scene, but it won't fit into EIII proper. It's beyond the scope of the themes.

Part of me is just responding to the extreme excitement for that one particular deleted scene. Like I said, I sort of resent the contortions the PT Yoda has had to endure. So this is just me responding. Other films are just as guilty (Legolas in TTT and ROTK - though he was never established like Yoda in ESB, the same idea of using a character fans like to score some cheap goodwill).

So it's just resentment :)

Take care,
Chuck
 

Chris Atkins

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That's fine. I now see that line "wars don't make one great") as meaning much more because it's Yoda speaking from personal experience (and failure)...not just the theoretical ramblings of an out of touch philosopher.
 

Kain_C

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Chuck, I really don't understand your post. Why question people's excitement over what is probably a great scene that alot of people want to see? Just because so many people are excited to see it? Resentment? :thumbsdown:

In one post you decry how Lucas utilized Yoda as a character to be rooted for on the screen. But the Dagobah scene is the answer to that idea. It shows the result of his failure and is a quiet moment we're use to seeing from Yoda in the OT. So yes, it certainly DOES fit into ROTS. At least for me.
 

Paul McElligott

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I can just hear Yoda's internal dialog in that scene.

"Great? If so great war makes you, then living in this stinking mudhole why am I, you little punk?"

I think Luke's "memory" of Dagobah is explained by the fact that Yoda was "watching" him, even though the little green guy never left the planet. There was some kind of "force connection" that left Luke with a "dream-like" impression of Dagobah.
 

Chuck Mayer

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Chris,
That's just it. He wasn't some theoretical out of touch philosopher. It was quite an "in touch" thing to say. And it clearly had an impact on young Luke. And it was never in doubt that Yoda was a "great warrior". But in connecting the dots, we have to show that these days.

I don't think it cheapens the line. Simply our perspective of the character. A lot of talk about the new film A History of Violence revolves around whether you endorse violence by simply showing it (something Hollywood does to the nth degree). It is cheapening to see Yoda elevated based on that ideal, and then have action scenes of Yoda used to sell AOTC. It seems like the writer wants to have his cake (Wars do not make one great) and eat it too (hey kids, watch YODA KICK ASS!).

Chris, if Yoda had beaten the Sidious, would he now say wars DO make one great? Yoda's failing is not "in" or "out of" war. It's far more serious. Yoda didn't fail as a warrior...he failed as a leader.

And Kain, that's OK. I don't understand a lot of your posts either. I can't explain myself any better, so take away what you want and ignore the rest. As a quick reponse to your points...if the Dagobah scene is the "answer", then why was it cut? To make room for Yoda kicking ass at the Jedi Temple? That's like screeching a FONT 56 headline, and posting a retraction two weeks later on page A31, below the fold.

I am not decrying the scene. Moreover the use of Yoda in the PT, specifically to sell it.

See my AOTC posts...this is not a new pet peeve of mine.

Back to the DVD,
Chuck
 

Chris Atkins

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Chuck:

Sorry if I put words in your mouth. I didn't mean to assert that you thought he WAS an out of touch philosopher. Just pointing out that the action scenes in AOTC and ROTS go to show that Yoda has personal experience with these issues, and he wants Luke to learn from that experience.

If Yoda had beaten Sidious, he would never have had the conversation with Luke in the first place. But even if they had, Yoda certainly wouldn't have said that wars make you great, anymore than he would have asserted that lifting starships out of swamps make you great.
 

Tim Glover

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This recent discussion probably belongs in the SAGA thread but is also belongs here too since the debate/discussion on the Dagabah scene.

I'm kind of in both camps regarding Yoda. I'm getting to have my cake, ice cream, and all at once. :D

Seriously, in the OT, Yoda was seen as one who was wise and when he spoke you sensed he'd been there. So seeing him do battle works for me. I can also see how Chuck feels that Lucas used Yoda for the applause button. I don't see it like that but I can understand it since the crowds would erupt when Yoda lit up the saber. However, some of this grew from 1980. Yoda has been a fan favorite for years and like all of the Star Wars stuff, we inflate everything about it. (I'm guilty of this too) :b Alot of fans wanted to see this great warrior display his saber skills. Showing that wasn't a give in from Lucas for me.

When Yoda speaks to Luke about "wars not make one great" actually works even better to a degree seeing how Yoda failed in defeating Sidious. Yoda obviously becomes more passive and wise...learning from mistakes by the time we see him in ESB.

Same really for Obi Wan. Look how aggressive OBW is ROTS. Even somewhat arrogant when he's about to fight Dooku and Greivous. Hey I loved OBW. Still do. But notice how much wiser and passive OBW is in A New Hope. Even says to Han...
"there are other ways besides fighting..."

Both Yoda and OBW seem to have learned from previous wars and battles. Learned from mistakes. It's okay to see those mistakes and battles played out in the PT. For me, it strengthens the characters.

FWIW, I don't want the Yoda-Degabah scene reinserted. I love ROTS JUST the way it was in theaters. Fantastic finale.
 

Grant H

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If the Shak-Ti death was filmed both ways, and we're getting the Grievous version as a deleted scene, I wonder if the Anakin version will be re-inserted into the film?

Probably the biggest gripes about Ep. II was the "How did Padme fall for a mass muderer?" softened somewhat by extending the confession scene in AOTC, and her near-death fall "Yes![I'm perfectly fine!]" moment remedied with a woozy "Uh-huh."

Certainly the biggest problem people seemed to have with ROTS was Anakin's fast turn, specifically, signing up for Sith duty and instantly slaughtering children. Inserting the slaying of Shak-Ti might help people with his dark side intoxication a bit, before he takes out the Younglings. As-is there's a TON of shock value, but the scene is probably powerful enough to hold onto that even if there's some build-up.

If people actually have the DVD, though, I'm sure we'd have heard if a major sequence was re-inserted into the film.
 

Grant H

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Yeah, I know; I already coughed up every defense imaginable in the Movie thread a long time ago. I can live with the film as-is, but it's a tough sell for some fans, and I would think some general audience members. I think ROTS is the only Star Wars film where your really have to listen to every line in order to appreciate what's really going on and what the characters are going through.

It would be dumb if she's just meditating; I can wee why a lot of people would have liked to see Vader do in a few Jedi himself though. That would make for a heck of a lot of saber battles. One must presume Anakin was doing in adults before he cleared out the Younglings, but not everybody makes that leap, unfortunately. I think some people, and especially critics would have liked to see him be pretty evil before jumping right to unfathomably evil. Or see the POWER of the dark side impair his judgement before he slayed the Younglings. It still works when you allow the film to play "catch-up" with the Sith eye reveal and his crazy ranting later in the film. But it's awfully easy to think "How could he do that?" and lose all respect for Anakin instead of realizing the dark side has corrupted him at that point in the film.

Personally, I think it was an artistic choice that as soon as Anakin turns to thd dark side by willingly becoming a Sith, the film disconnects from him. Anakin is gone, and the shadowy Lord Vader remains. Lucas plays an unusual game of "tell, then show" in ROTS. We see him Vader/Anakin do atrocious things, then we're told he's been consumed, then we're shown indeed he has been when the madman who Force-chokes Padme and takes on Obi-Wan is clearly not the Anakin Skywalker we knew.
 

TravisR

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It's not quite Vader killing Jedi but there's a great animatic of him walking through a shot in the Jedi Temple (when the Clones raid it). He just walks across the foreground and in the background there's various Jedi and Clones battling each other. My words don't capture the coolness of the image- hope that animatic makes the DVD!:)
 

Kain_C

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Chuck, what I was unsure of is why you would seemingly express resentment that alot of us are excited over the deleted scenes, that's all. Your words I am using too.

If I have any problems with ROTS, it's that the pacing is rather brisk. You go to many different planets and situations very quickly, with few quiet reflective moments. I think some scenes should have been trimmed, especially the 'big' fight, although I love it. It just goes on a little long for my tastes and trimming it to make room for more narrative scenes would have made me happy. That's why I am in favor of the Dagobah scene. Yoda was a very important presence in the PT, why not show his fate as well?
 

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