Chris Farmer
Screenwriter
- Joined
- Aug 23, 2002
- Messages
- 1,496
Sorry to dredge up old threads, but I just finally saw this movie yesterday and know that the admins don't like repeats. 
One thing I found interesting was how many people took Clive Owen at his word that he slept with a whore in New York. My friend and I both agreed afterwards that his affair was a lie and a test. Notice his immediate response to Julia when she tells him it's alright: "Why is it alright?" I thought that when he returned he knew something was wrong with her and was using it to judge her state of mind. If she were furious with him it meant she hadn't been cheating on him. Since she accepted it she felt it was acceptable and only what she deserved. At least that was my take on the scene.
The other one I found interesting was the fake Alice name. I think Clive hit the nail on the head when he was talking to her in the strip club, that she uses the fake name as insulation and a shield. "Jane" never gets hurt, it was only Alice, and Alice doesn't truly exist. Jane can throw off the Alice identity at a moment's notice and get on with her life with no regrets or backwards glances, which is what I took Natalie's last scene to mean. She has thrown off the battered Alice identity and taken on a new, innocent and carefree one. Incidentally, this also meant that Jude's failed novel was based on a person's life who didn't exist.
Also, the one last thing Sarah and I agreed on (and no, not a date movie, but she's one of the few people I can go to "artsy" movies with and then enjoy/discuss them afterwards) was the rationale for Natalie ending things with Jude. It had nothing to know with Jude's interrogations on sex withClive, at least not directly. Rather, his obsession over the "truth" was what would eventually torpedo things. Someday he would realize that Alice didn't exist and she'd made everything up, and that would be what he couldn't forgive. Obviously he can't criticize her for sex, even revenge sex, given his own past. But his insistence on eventually getting the truth out meant that someday Alice would be revealed, and the fact that she had lied to him from the moment they met would be unforgivable.
Other random thoughts. On paper, Clive's character was the highest and noblest. He didn't cheat at all (at least in my interpretation), was very honest (although who knows if he was lying when he said he didn't sleep with Natalie, or when he said he did, one of them was a lie), and never used violence. But I found him utterly despicable. He used his honesty and insight as a weapon, to wound people, to get into their souls and then cut it out. Julia was probably the most deceptive, flip-flopping all over the place, but I found her to be, if not the most sympathetic, then the most pitiful. She sought out pain and misery because she felt it was no more then she deserved. She didn't want to be happy, and whenever she found it she took steps to end that happiness. Jude was a lost character who didn't know what he wanted, but was utterly unable to exert any form of self control. The grass is greener on the other side, even if the other side is where you just left.
Oh, and apart from the stripping scene, which I found to be very well written with some fantastic dialogue, the other one I found very powerful was when Clive was interrogating Julia about her affairs. He couldn't throw her out when she was submissive and apologetic and going on about how bad she was. He had to force her into a bad position, to make her get angry, before he could hate her. His initial sympathy gave way to urgency to find a chink in her armor, until he was able to find it and exploit it, and in so doing, he was able to turn her from someone he tried to forgive and talk out of her decision into someone he could look in the eye and tell her to "Fuck off and die." He needed an excuse to hate her. Very well done and acted.
One thing I found interesting was how many people took Clive Owen at his word that he slept with a whore in New York. My friend and I both agreed afterwards that his affair was a lie and a test. Notice his immediate response to Julia when she tells him it's alright: "Why is it alright?" I thought that when he returned he knew something was wrong with her and was using it to judge her state of mind. If she were furious with him it meant she hadn't been cheating on him. Since she accepted it she felt it was acceptable and only what she deserved. At least that was my take on the scene.
The other one I found interesting was the fake Alice name. I think Clive hit the nail on the head when he was talking to her in the strip club, that she uses the fake name as insulation and a shield. "Jane" never gets hurt, it was only Alice, and Alice doesn't truly exist. Jane can throw off the Alice identity at a moment's notice and get on with her life with no regrets or backwards glances, which is what I took Natalie's last scene to mean. She has thrown off the battered Alice identity and taken on a new, innocent and carefree one. Incidentally, this also meant that Jude's failed novel was based on a person's life who didn't exist.
Also, the one last thing Sarah and I agreed on (and no, not a date movie, but she's one of the few people I can go to "artsy" movies with and then enjoy/discuss them afterwards) was the rationale for Natalie ending things with Jude. It had nothing to know with Jude's interrogations on sex withClive, at least not directly. Rather, his obsession over the "truth" was what would eventually torpedo things. Someday he would realize that Alice didn't exist and she'd made everything up, and that would be what he couldn't forgive. Obviously he can't criticize her for sex, even revenge sex, given his own past. But his insistence on eventually getting the truth out meant that someday Alice would be revealed, and the fact that she had lied to him from the moment they met would be unforgivable.
Other random thoughts. On paper, Clive's character was the highest and noblest. He didn't cheat at all (at least in my interpretation), was very honest (although who knows if he was lying when he said he didn't sleep with Natalie, or when he said he did, one of them was a lie), and never used violence. But I found him utterly despicable. He used his honesty and insight as a weapon, to wound people, to get into their souls and then cut it out. Julia was probably the most deceptive, flip-flopping all over the place, but I found her to be, if not the most sympathetic, then the most pitiful. She sought out pain and misery because she felt it was no more then she deserved. She didn't want to be happy, and whenever she found it she took steps to end that happiness. Jude was a lost character who didn't know what he wanted, but was utterly unable to exert any form of self control. The grass is greener on the other side, even if the other side is where you just left.
Oh, and apart from the stripping scene, which I found to be very well written with some fantastic dialogue, the other one I found very powerful was when Clive was interrogating Julia about her affairs. He couldn't throw her out when she was submissive and apologetic and going on about how bad she was. He had to force her into a bad position, to make her get angry, before he could hate her. His initial sympathy gave way to urgency to find a chink in her armor, until he was able to find it and exploit it, and in so doing, he was able to turn her from someone he tried to forgive and talk out of her decision into someone he could look in the eye and tell her to "Fuck off and die." He needed an excuse to hate her. Very well done and acted.
