Batman Begins (2005) (1 Viewer)

[JonZ]

Yea that was great, and I loved the scenes of Batman clinging onto the sides of buildings, with the cape flapping in the wind and rain.

Just great.

 

[Cory S.]

Another thing I think they need to do in the sequels is actually have Batman cross that line that Alfred alluded to. And the best way to do that is to kill the Rachel character and have him feel responsible for it.

Clearly this film sets up that line that Batman could cross one day and we've never seen that. If this team is so committed to really trying to portray Batman in these films and not the villians, having Batman cross that line would bring more depth to his character throughout this series. There is potential there for something dramatic in that area because of how Batman/Bruce Wayne is....

 

[Michael Martin]

I've read Year One, but it's been a long time. I'll look at it again next time I'm at the bookstore.

I'm a HUGE DKR fan: my RA at college showed it to me, and I was converted into a Miller/Batman fan. I'd always liked the character, but, like most, Batman for me was Adam West and camp.

Chuck, I'd love a thread solely quoting DKR. And I love Batman's cynical pragmatism against Supe's sunny hopefulness: "And then he ruins everything by talking."

I also agree that Clint in the 80s would have made a BADASS older Bruce Wayne from DKR. Ahh well.

The more I think about the film, the more I like it. Whatever details they changed for film (costume, names, etc.), Nolan, Bale, Goyer and the rest absolutely nailed the character. This is Batman as I've envisioned him and as he's been portrayed in the best of the comics. More, more, more!

 

[Chuck Mayer]

Cory,
They'll have to create dramatic tension in the future films. Batman Begins is all that this one is. There is still much growing to do. There will be strains between Batman and the police, therefore Gordon. I cannot imagine how upset Alfred will be when Bruce first considers using a sidekick (this will be very tough on the screenwriters...making that make sense). The richness of the character and his supporting cast allow for plenty of opportunities to investigate the volution of Batman. Frankly, a rich white guy fighting crime and criminals may often seem rather ironic. The end of Begins (heh, heh, heh) shows that Bruce recognizes his wealth can do a lot for the city. Maybe he doesn't spend enough time as Bruce doing this in the future, because he'd rather be Batman. The casting of Michael Caine looks smarter and smarter and smarter. Here is a man who can be a real Jiminy Cricket, who can stand up to Batman/Bruce, who can remind him that Batman is merely a symbol...Bruce is his father's son. Tons of dramatic possibilities. How would Batman respond to more brutal vigilantes? More importantly, what if they were more effective (at first) than he?

We could go on and on, but Batman has good examples of what a comic sequel can be (Spidey 2 and X2 both carried the themes of the first film further in their runtime, not satisfied with merely showing the hero fighting a new villain on a great new set) in the biz.

They have to maintain the integrity of the cast. Caine and Oldman are a must. Freeman is almost a must. I'd be happy to see Holmes, Wilkinson, and Bruce's parents again (with a few scenes with his mother perhaps).

I just want them to maintain the quality of the film. The storylines can go lots of places.

Take care,
Chuck

 

[Cory S.]

Chuck,

Same here with maintain the integrity that they've established with this film.

Personally, I don't see Goyer and Nolan introducing the sidekick in this series. It might be mandated by WB to do it or Goyer might have a love for Robin but I personally don't see the sidekick making into this series, especially not in the next one.

And you're definitely right about the themes and character arcs evolving in the next film. They definitely have to go the Spiderman 2 and X2 route but because of this character, it's going to be far more engrossing mainly because of who this character is.

The cast has to come back, even Holmes. Even if it's just a small cameo role but important, she should come back. If anything else, just to break the mold that of having a new female character with each film. If Spiderman and X-Men can do it, I see no reason why Batman can't. And despite what critics have said, she really is important.

I will say this. WB needs to let Nolan and the cast do what they want for a while before getting them back on board. And when they do, I personally wouldn't wait. I'd shoot two and three at the same time and have a major cliffhanger of an ending in 2. I know it's been done before but if you don't do it this way, you risk the chance of the cast not wanting to come back to do a third if they wait awhile.

My personal fear is that WB will destroy what greatness they've done here by pushing for the sequels now. I mean, the set up to the sequels is almost too perfect. Let's all cross our fingers on this franchise.

 

[Michael Martin]

It depends on what you mean by "pushing." Since Sony and Spider-man seem to be the model for success financially and critically, look at what they've done: once opening weekend is done, they start working on the next.

This is not a bad thing. It gives them a lot of development time, where the story can be hammered out, tested, and made stronger. It gives effects and design teams a long lead time to do the best work possible. And it allows the actors to do other (though usually smaller) projects between films, while blocking off time to shoot the sequel(s).

I agree with Chuck that getting everyone to return is crucial. Only Hauer's character could be dropped without some explanation.

I just hope it's not 3 years til the next Batman. Two years is a long enough wait.

 

[Lou Sytsma]

Holme's character really has served her purpose - playing Batman's moral compass. The love story story was secondary to that function. By the end of the movie Batman has his shit together so to speak making her primary function redundant.

I believe the intent with the closein fight scenes was to mimic the swarming bat flight scenes - a whirling mass of bodies and wings.

 

[Michael Martin]

RE: choppy fight scenes

I did like the way Nolan had Batman on the fringes of the screen, and in the dark, quickly, brutally, and expertly taking out the bad guys. It's exactly how the character works, and is spot-on. But for some of the more direct fights - such as Batman vs Ra's Al Ghul's henchmen or Ducard/Al Ghul - the editing and perspective should have been more "standard." Batman fighting against the League and his former mentor are too important to leave as quick blurs on the screen.

 

[ChrisMatson]

Is anyone else frustrated by the critics who complain that this movie isn't "fun" or colorful enough. I saw Gene Shalit's review on Today and he said that it was too dark (meaning black) that he had trouble seeing. He ended his review by saying that if Batman Begins had been the first Batman movie, it also would have been the last.

Over at the Washington Post, Ann Hornaday praises the cast but then writes,

 

[DavidPla]

Didn't Nolan or Goyer confirm about how they'd like a trilogy of films to play out? Or was it a rumour at Batman On Film. Either way, the rumour was...

Joker WOULD be the villain in the second film with Harvey Dent as DA of Gotham trying to help Bruce put away the Joker. At some point they do get the Joker in court and HE throws the acid at Harvey which would lead to the third film about Two-Face and Bruce trying to save what is left of his friend.

 

[Chuck Mayer]

I didn't even see a love story in the film. I saw a glimmer of attraction, but an unrealistic possibility. I think Katie should return. She's ideally placed for a Two-Face storyline, with tragic results perhaps. Does the film need her? No. But it could use her.

Oddly enough, if I knew the film we could get was of this caliber, three years is just fine. Nolan expressed interest in a smaller non-related project, and he should do that. SIGN HIM NOW, but let him go for a while. Same with the cast. I'd rather a great film in 3 years than a good one in 2.

Pixar polishes the story for a long time. Spidey 2 did the same. So do labours of love. They should do the same here. Don't overwrite it or anything. Just revisit and tweak, ad nauseum. 99% perspiration and all that. Shooting two in a row next time might be a good idea, if the cast can stand it. But make TWO movies, not a four hour one, that are connected. I just don't want WB to turn their magic property into a quick cash cow. I don't want them to drive Nolan's interest down, or Bale's, etc.

It's a weird alchemy. But there is so much promise in future installments.

Take care,
Chuck

EDIT: Chris, that quote is mind-boggling. It's a standard PG-13 film. Nothing as physically brutal as a lot of crap we see in PG-13. It's definitely scary, and I wouldn't take a kid under 10. As for her determination of who the film is for: I don't know...maybe PEOPLE?!? Batman has endured for over 60 years because the character works. The film captures that.

 

[Michael Martin]

has me shaking my head. Did the parents NOT see the PG-13 rating? It's not a movie for 7 year olds.

 

[Michael Martin]

Yeah, agreed, I just don't wanna wait that long!

 

[Lou Sytsma]

Another raised hand here.

Does anyone have an issue with Ra's fate on the train? Some are saying that Batman effectively rescinded his previous position about not being a vigilante. He left Ra on the train with the controls locked and the track destroyed. By not saving him, he effectively did kill him.

I can agree with that analysis but I also feel that they had positioned themselves where Ra would have refused Batman's offer to save him. A small additional moment where Ra refuses to be helped or Batman tried to save him and failed should have been included.

 

[Cory S.]

Chuck,

I definitely agree with your post.

And that rumor plotline for the next two films, I've heard was right. Supposedly, that website batman-on-film.com WB watched it closely and actually used it to judge what people were looking for in this film and the franchise as a whole. The plotline rumor came directly from that site,supposedly through contacts.

 

[Paul_Scott]

in any case, the Dawes character in this(these) films is not about romance to me- its about affection, a peer relationship for Bruce, a connection-besides Alfred- to his childhood ideal life, and she's another important, and trustworthy resource for his alter ego. and that's what i saw in the hand holding at the end.
i would be fully on board with having her back and having the 'relationship' aspects be nothing more than some wistful glances.
Besides, it would be cool to see in one of these films the hero having a relationship with a female character that is something other than girlfriend or jeopardy-bait.


also, someone commented on the scene with Bruce on the floor going over the notes he's taken on Gordon and others- I LOVED that scene.
i'm going to sound like a real tool, but i had tears running down my face for much of this film and it was mainly because of scenes like that- scenes that showed me that these guys GOT it. they got the appeal of the character and it was in the quiet moments, just as much if not more than, in the bombastic ones. and they were paying respect to it with intelligence and wit.
that definitely affects me.


and man, was this film loud. i think thats one reason i was so fatigued after it was over.
great sound design and great use of surround effects, but a little too hot for me.

 

[Jonathan T.]

I think that sounds like a GREAT plan.

Of course they've also hinted that the Penguin could make an appearance.

 

[Paul_Scott]

as far as Batman breaking character in regards to Ra's fate- i was also thinking about how morally(ethically?) dubious Gordon is for merely looking the other way.
he says "i'm not a rat" as if facilitating corruption by not doing anything is a virtue.
he makes the comment that "in a town like this who would i go to?" and i guess that gives him a bit of a pass (for now), but i see this this being a morally murky area.
and while i absolutely do not want to see Batman killing the villian in every film, i do want Batman to be a flesh and blood character, and as such i have to admit that in extreme circumstances people just don't always act consistent with their more noble nature.

and again, he gets something of a pass because he is learning in this film to be the iconic character. he isn't fully formed yet.

 

[Chuck Mayer]

Paul,
I understand your emotional response. I only teared up for the scenes involving his parents and their deaths. But I remained constantly moved by the events in the film. Certain beats would return Bruce to that place (and not their death, but their life) and time, again and again in the film.

The film means a lot to me because they got what I love about the character right. Which isn't the darkness, or the gadgets, or the cool car, or the cave, or the fight training, or even the genius. It was the promise the boy made ("My parents deserve justice" - though he was still figuring out what justice was), it was the dedication he shows. Batman is special NOT because he doesn't have powers...but because it doesn't matter whether he does or not. He is driven by love, not fear. He is angry, not hateful. In short, he's deeply moral but not perfect. Batman achieves his ends through intelligence and willpower. And they captured that. Over and over in the film, they got the character right. Just like Raimi and company did with Spider-Man. I simply like (and believe in) Batman more.

That the filmmakers thought enough of his character to showcase that was a treat beyond my imagining. I thought they'd respect him and make a good film. But they understood and loved him, and made a great film.

As for Gordon, I agree. But as you point out, the second statement explains why he might express himself that way. I hope they use Gordon more in the sequels.

I agree regarding Two-Face. Harvey Dent should be a friend and confidante of Bruce. Wayne should support his campaign, because he believes in Dent. And Dent believes in the law and justice.

Take care,
Chuck

 

[Doug Miller]

Couple of things to chip in:

- Liked how "dirty" everything felt, but in a more realistic way than the over stylized Batman's by Burton.

- "Swear to ME" is the best f&@!ing line ever. Bale did a terrific job as Batman. I loved when Scarecrow was choking on Fear and Batman was demon-looking. It reminded me of Batman: The Cult

So far I'm in the minority, but I have a hard time calling BB better than Burton's first Batman. For me, that movie was so much about the experience and the hype, and the merchandise, and my age at the time, that it will never be replaced. That said, I absolutely loved BB -- and, in fact, will watch the Burton Batman again today to see if I change my mind. Awesome movie that I'll see again tomorrow.

Doug