Ockeghem's All Things DARK SHADOWS (w/Spoilers) (1 Viewer)

[GeorgeJA]

Hi Scott,

Hitchcock is a personal favorite of mine also, and Truffaut is pretty high up on my list as well. Have you seen THE BRIDE WORE BLACK. Truffaut's tribute to Hitch?

I'm glad to see Sarah again too, but "London Bridge Is Falling Down is for babies!" ;-) Seriously, Sharon Smyth was a sweet kid. Her character added a lot to the role - there's a bit of melancholy when she talks about not being able to find her parents. And I'll be properly booing and hissing when Angelique enters the picture and starts to mess with her.

I'm at episode 260 and once again, the disc finishes on another exciting conclusion with Maggie escaping from her cell - just in the nick of time with Barnabas in hot pursuit.

We also get 2 milestones in one episode - Elizabeth Stoddard actually leaves Collinwood (to take her daughter home - a rather painful scene I might add), and she later admits to Vicky that she killed her husband, so that storyline is percolating as well.

Buzz has been a hoot, but I have to admit I like how he made Jason McGuire look like a fool.

 

[Ockeghem]

[SIZE= 16px] [/SIZE]George,
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[SIZE= 16px]Yes, I love that Truffaut film. I also own a few books on Truffaut, and one of these is the one that contains a rather lengthy discussion between the two directors.[/SIZE]
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[SIZE= 16px]Sharon Smyth did do a wonderful job as Sarah Collins. The special features with her recollections of being on the show are also a lot of fun to watch. Her accent comes through there quite nicely, and as you probably know, it came through on the show a few times as well.[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 16px] [/SIZE]
[SIZE= 16px]One of the scenes with Sarah and Willie is quite interesting. She’s pointing to the Old House when he asks her where she lives. She’s telling him the truth, but he of course doesn’t believe this. What was compelling was when Willie said, “No, that’s Mr. Collins’ house,” and Sarah wouldn’t have any reason to argue the point, since it is Mr. Collins' house – it’s the house of Barnabas to Willie and the house of Mr. Jeremiah Collins to Sarah. So there isn’t any inconsistency there.[/SIZE]
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[SIZE= 16px]I too loved how Buzz put Jason in his place at the Blue Whale. That was priceless. It’s one of those rare times when Jason is really speechless.[/SIZE]
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[SIZE= 16px]One of my all-time favorite scenes in early Dark Shadows occurs in episode #264. This is the dialogue between Jason and Barnabas in the Great House drawing room, which occurs shortly after Roger has visited Barnabas to tell him of the goings on with the wedding, Jason’s inability to be trusted, and the possibility that he will take over both the estate and the Collins family enterprise should he be allowed to marry Elizabeth. It’s a wonderful battle of wits. But, leading up to this is the conversation between Roger and Barnabas, in which Barnabas tells Roger that perhaps he (Barnabas) can ease the situation a bit – LOL! When Barnabas returns home, he tells Willie that if Jason is not careful, he will have to be dealt with.[/SIZE]
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[SIZE= 16px]Dennis Patrick really does do a good job – good enough to make me angry when he tries to tell Carolyn that she will no longer be allowed in her own home once he marries her mother.[/SIZE]

[SIZE= 16px]We also have our first Dr. Julia Hoffman sighting in this batch of episodes, as Maggie has been put under her care.[/SIZE]
[SIZE= 16px]Somewhat amazingly, we’re now up to episode no. 273! We’ve watched around eighteen episodes the past three days, and some of these more than once. These past few days would probably qualify as a mini-marathon of sorts. We’ve just finished the episode (#272) where the trunk has been dug up in the basement. It will be opened in the next episode.[/SIZE][SIZE= 14px] [/SIZE]

 

[GeorgeJA]

Scott,

I knew you'd eventually get past me, but I didn't expect it this soon! Sounds like you all had a blast, so that's cool.

I finished watching the first Dr. Hoffman episode. Looking at this, it is hard to believe that she and Barnabas will be the stars two years later. I liked Dr. Woodard's reactions to some of her rather cold comments. Also, I couldn't imagine going through what Sam Evans has - first Maggie gets the "illness", then she is abducted, and now that he has found her, her mind is gone. I would have to be put in an institution myself after all that.

Episode #264 lived up to your description - that was a great episode all around, including Roger versus Jason, Willie versus Sarah, but Jason and Barnabas matching wits was fun. Jason was even being very self-conscious about how they are playing games with each other. And for the first time, I actually wanted Barnabas to bite someone - that would certainly ease the situation.

We also get the new Burke Devlin - now this is the Burke I remember, so I'm okay with him, but I can see where audiences would be disappointed. Anthony George plays him much more low-key. I could just imagine Mitch Ryan's reaction to Vicky showing empathy for the madman - he'd be chewing up some scenery over that comment.

Oh, and it was so tempting for Sam to tell Vicky that Maggie is alive, but I think he made the right decision to not tell her. The more people you tell, no matter how good intentioned, the greater chances for a slip-up. And although Sam doesn't know this, Vicky is just barely keeping it together trying to keep Liz's secret.

 

[Ockeghem]

George,

Sam goes through the torment that you've mentioned above, and then he has some demons (besides alcohol and the reasons for his recently burned hand, among others) with which to deal. You may or may not have seen the part of the series I am referring to yet, so I won't spoil that in case you haven't seen those episodes.

Regarding Dr. Hoffman, I can vividly recall that wonderful scene (it's down the road a ways) where she visits the Old House, and decides to touch up her make-up. What a great, great scene that is!

Yes, I was definitely on the side of Barnabas when he and Jason are having that dialogue. Of course, I know what occurs down the road (as you probably do as well). Jason is greedy, and it will be his undoing. I liked how he lets some people know that he never loses when someone takes him on. Well, I have news for him....

I've kept a closer look on Anthony George this time around. He actually looks like the old Burke in places; there are even a few times when he wears the same overcoat Burke used to wear. {BTW, did you catch that they said "The part of Burke Devlin is being played by Anthony George" over and over and over? At first I was confused by the number of times we were hearing this, but then realized that the show was being aired daily, and not everyone got to see every episode. Besides, we're watching this show in bunches now, and that couldn't be done as easily by the masses back in 1966-67.}

That secret -- the one of keeping Maggie's actual condition (she's alive, after all) and whereabouts hidden -- will come back to haunt a few people down the road. And it will eventually reveal one of the greatest special effects of the series, not to mention two 'powers' that I did not know Barnabas possessed when I first watched the series back during its original run.

 

[GeorgeJA]

Scott,

I'm pretty fuzzy about where I started watching DS. I do remember at some point Sam goes blind. I'm not sure if that is part of the demon story that you mention. I can see that a lot of things are falling into place that I remember, such as the Ghost of Sarah, Dave Woodard, and of course, Julia, so I know I'm not too far away from my entry point. But given that I haven't seen this part of the show in quite a while, I will continue to Netflix it even after I get to a 'been there, done that' moment.

As for "The Part of Burke Devlin" introduction, I've only heard it twice so far (I've got 2 more episodes to finish Disc 2). I would offer another explanation on why they keep repeating it: perhaps they were still negotiating a contract with Anthony George and did not want to commit to him yet.

I am at the point where Elizabeth is ready to commit suicide on Widow's Hill on the night before her wedding. Since the wedding is the next day, I would venture to guess that we are at the climax of the Jason McGuire story. Also, thanks for all teasers on Jason and the secret about Maggie. You've got me psyched now!

 

[Ockeghem]

George,

Yes, Sam's blindness is what I was referring to above. I didn't know if you knew that already. (When I spoke of demons, I was speaking of personal rather than literal -- sorry about that!)

I like your explanation regarding Anthong George -- I honestly hadn't even considered that.

We watched episodes 273-275 tonight. Such great build-up for an eventuality that many fans had/have been waiting for for quite some time! More later.

 

[Charles Ellis]

Here's the basic story regarding the departure of Mitch Ryan: he had a serious drinking problem at the time and started missing shows (in one episode Burke's lines were given to Joe!), so apparently he was fired and Anthony George (who was already a 'name' thanks to his times as a cast member of both Checkmate and The Untouchables) was hired as a replacement. By coinicdence, there was a similar situation going on in the country's biggest selling vocal group during that same summer of 1967 when Florence Ballard was fired from The Supremes for a myriad of reasons (drinking, weight gain, missed shows and open hostility to Diana Ross), and Cindy Birdsong (already known as a member of Patti Labelle's Bluebelles) was her replacement. One big difference is that Mitch Ryan ultimately conquered his demons, but Ms. Ballard was destroyed by hers.

While it is true that Anthony George's interepretation of Burke lacked the menace and macho sexuality of Mitch Ryan's, he did add a touch of sophistication to the character that proved useful when Burke became a rival to Barnabas over Vicki's affection. On the other hand, it would've been interesting to see Jonathan and Mitch going at it- perhaps we would have seen Burke throwing a punch at the 'newest' Collins family member.........

 

[Ockeghem]

George,

We're through to #278 now. Sarah appears in a couple of episodes, and the costume party plans are being formulated. This would be one of the very few times that I'd like to see at least one scene in color, to appreciate the colors of all of the dresses and suits. I've seen some of those that were used in the show on various outtakes as well as in books, and they're quite gorgeous. For example, Sarah's dress really is blue.

Regarding Mitchell Ryan and his drinking, I've known about his issue with this for years. But it was only a few years ago that I discovered that he was also good friends with another alcoholic, Ralph Waite (John Walton), and that the two of them used to drink together often. I would have loved to have seen Ryan continue in this role, though. It would have been quite interesting to see the chemistry between he and a few other characters that are to come on the scene in the next two or three story arcs. Just think of he and Lara Parker in a scene together. Oh well....

 

[Charles Ellis]

That's Ralph Waite, and I didn't know about that! Years ago DS director Jack "Sean Dhu" Sullivan divulged at a Festival that Mitch's situation was even more complicated since he was also doing Wait Until Dark on Broadway and he was having an affair with the leading lady, who was none other than Lee Remick!! Both were married to other people and on some mornings when Mitch couldn't be found at home to get him on the DS set, Jack and some of the other production personnel had to discreetly call Lee Remick's apartment to see if he was there and was sober enough to do a show. It's amazing he was able to give such an effective performance as Burke with all the turmoil in his life offscreen.

 

[GeorgeJA]

/forum/thread/244006/dark-shadows-the-beginning/150#post_3717864
I would have loved to have seen Ryan continue in this role, though. It would have been quite interesting to see the chemistry between he and a few other characters that are to come on the scene in the next two or three story arcs. Just think of he and Lara Parker in a scene together. Oh well....

Oh yes, the Mitch/Lara scenes would have been priceless! But also think about how different the story lines would have been had Mitch stayed on. First of all, would he have played Jeremiah or Peter Bradford? And there's no doubt in my mind that Burke and Vicki's fate would have been different (and hopefully more satisfying).

 

[GeorgeJA]

Scott,

I finished Disc 2 and I'm waiting for Disc 3, and for the third time in a row they ended the disc on a great cliffhanger - Elizabeth's Wedding Ceremony confession. The tension was really building up in those last two episodes - you had Elizabeth's attempted suicide, Burke's attempt at being the hero with his investigation, and Jason and Carolyn's heated animosity towards each other with Jason essentially kicking her out of her own home.

With all these actions in play, we now have a wedding ceremony, and the questions build up. What will Elizabeth do? Will she marry Jason or stop the wedding? If she continues with the wedding, Carolyn has her own plans, which are to kill Jason with a pistol. Less obvious but also adding to the tension was Burke's presence. Now, why would he want to attend this wedding? Did he have another ace up his sleeve?

The writers kept me guessing all the way but they chose option #1 with Elizabeth confessing to Paul Stoddard's murder, and that was a good choice because now I am looking forward to seeing the ramifications of that announcement - most notably what moves does Jason make, what does the Judge presiding over the wedding do, and lastly what is Carolyn's reaction to this news.

 

[Ockeghem]

Charles,

Of course it's Ralph Waite. I corrected it. I am frequently citing the name of William Waite (former Yale professor and medieval music scholar) in some of my writings. Thanks.

 

[Ockeghem]

Originally Posted by GeorgeJA
Scott,

I finished Disc 2 and I'm waiting for Disc 3, and for the third time in a row they ended the disc on a great cliffhanger - Elizabeth's Wedding Ceremony confession. The tension was really building up in those last two episodes - you had Elizabeth's attempted suicide, Burke's attempt at being the hero with his investigation, and Jason and Carolyn's heated animosity towards each other with Jason essentially kicking her out of her own home.

With all these actions in play, we now have a wedding ceremony, and the questions build up. What will Elizabeth do? Will she marry Jason or stop the wedding? If she continues with the wedding, Carolyn has her own plans, which are to kill Jason with a pistol. Less obvious but also adding to the tension was Burke's presence. Now, why would he want to attend this wedding? Did he have another ace up his sleeve?

The writers kept me guessing all the way but they chose option #1 with Elizabeth confessing to Paul Stoddard's murder, and that was a good choice because now I am looking forward to seeing the ramifications of that announcement - most notably what moves does Jason make, what does the Judge presiding over the wedding do, and lastly what is Carolyn's reaction to this news.

George,

That's awesome that you're where you are at now in this series. You will no doubt have answers to many (if not all) of your questions (especially those in your last paragraph) when you get up to about #278. I re-watched episode nos. 275-278 over the weekend with my younger daughters, all of whom really like the character of Sarah Collins. They're all caught up now.

Addendum: We completed disc three of Collection 2 last night (episodes 279-280). This brings us to the costume party, and another of the wonderful seances seen in the series. Of course, we were left with quite the cliffhanger during the seance.

 

[Ockeghem]

George,

We watched two more episodes last night (nos. 281-282). I won't spoil the seance scenes for you, except to say that they were quite good. I will probably watch nos. 279-282 again (this time with my other children) before moving too far ahead of where they are. {Side note: The Disc Four special feature with Alexandra Moltke was quite good.}

 

[Str8Ballin]

I just found this forum and started browsing & found a thread on the earliest episodes of Dark Shadows and had to join!
 
I just finished collecting all the volumes. I had never watched any of the pre-Barnabas episodes until recently. Now they are my favorite ones from the entire series. Im just about around the point where you all seem to be now. I have actually watched these episodes before just none of the pre-Barnabas episodes. Lets backtrack.
 
One of the questions I keep asking myself while watching these early pre-Barnabas episodes is this:
 
How could Roger and Burke ever have been close friends in the first place? It seems totally out of character for both of them really. For one thing I cant imagine Roger ever being that friendly towards one of his menial employees. Before Burke when to jail and then became rich he seemed like he came from a really poor family. So how those two ever became good buddies always remains a mystery to me.
 
Sam Evans number 1 looked totally wrong for the part yet he spoke so eloquently.
 
The Eagle Hill cemetary caretaker is so bad he's good! He seems so out of it most of the time.
 
I didnt think much of Laura Collins at first but she quickly grew on me. In fact she became my favorite character. I liked everything about her. Not a knock against her but I just didnt like how she pretty much came out and told Maggie what she was as soon as they met. I found that to be a stupid and pointless thing to do as far as writing goes. Hey writers, great way to spoil all the suspense there! Its like watching a mystery movie and having the ending revealed right off the bat.

 

[Ockeghem]

^^^
 
Welcome to the Dark Shadows thread! I too really enjoy the pre-Barnabas episodes. They contain some of my favorite story lines from the series. But I love many of the later story lines as well, easily as much as I do the earlier ones.

 

[GeorgeJA]

Hey Mister Cee!
 
Welcome! I came in for much of the same reasons. I started watching the series from the beginning and found out Scott was around the same point of the show that I was.
 
About Burke and Roger's friendship: we don't get to know a lot about it and since the stories eventually veered away from their stormy relationship, I doubt we will learn much more. But Burke is very charming and Roger just may have been bored with folks from his own status, and of course, they had common ground on one major thing: they both loved Laura.

 

[GeorgeJA]

Scott,
 
I tore through disc 3 and have gotten to the seance. Oh, so much to talk about - where to begin:
 
I enjoyed Liz's explanation of what happened the night of the "murder". I kept wondering why they kept Paul Stoddard's face hidden throughout all his scenes - it was like Wilson from "Home Improvement". Other than that, it was another great showcase for Dennis Patrick alternating between charming and slimy. I was thinking afterwards that it would have been a nice touch if Alexandra Moltke had played the young Elizabeth instead of Joan Bennett (hint hint).
 
I loved how Jason hightailed out of the house (but only to be brought back). And he was great at thinking on his feet by making that nice little deal to keep himself out of jail. You could imagine the way he must gotten out of scrapes in all these different locales like Hong Kong.
 
There was a nice bit of continuity where Liz explains that she was the one sobbing in the basement in one very early episode in the series. For one of the few times on this show, a seeming supernatural moment turned out to be grounded in reality.
 
When I saw Jason heading to the Old House, I could pretty much guess how this was going to play out. However, there was one really good scene between Jason and Vickie at the Blue Whale. I liked their discussion in general and the mutual disgust they had for each other. And to top it off was Jason's little "red herring" about knowing Vickie's past. Did he really know something or was it just a taunt?
 
Jason's demise was a nice little companion piece to Willie's life-changing moment. Barnabas is really good at that one handed stranglehold, isn't he?
 
I liked the scene with Barnabas and again Vickie where they feel Sarah's presence. It was fun watching Barnabas denying he felt a presence while still looking around the room.
 
The costume party was a nice idea and we get a sneak preview of the characters they will all eventually play (exception being Vickie who, nevertheless, looked really lovely as Josette). I also got a kick out of Barnabas struggling to keep in character - almost calling Liz his mother, snapping at Carolyn for calling Josette and Jeremiah lovers, and sneering at Burke for looking too much like Jeremiah. Speaking of which, I don't know how he thinks he's going to dispose of Burke with everyone right there.
 
But Barnabas has other problems with the seance. Who is going to turn up? Will Josette curse out Barnabas in French like she did Laura - a lot of good that did the last time.

 

[Ockeghem]

George,
 
We watched episode nos. 282-283 tonight. Dr. Hoffman is getting close. But little does anyone know that she will be a friend, and not an enemy, of Barnabas.
 
"I was thinking afterwards that it would have been a nice touch if Alexandra Moltke had played the young Elizabeth instead of Joan Bennett (hint hint)."
 
If you haven't watched the special feature yet, the one with Alexandra will be quite a treat. The resemblance of her to Joan Bennett is mentioned in a segment, particularly where she (Alexandra) talks about landing her role in the series.
 
"However, there was one really good scene between Jason and Vickie at the Blue Whale. I liked their discussion in general and the mutual disgust they had for each other. And to top it off was Jason's little "red herring" about knowing Vickie's past. Did he really know something or was it just a taunt?"
 
I was greatly intrigued by that part of the discussion. Jason was around Collinwood eighteen or more years ago, and there was a baby in the house slightly older than Carolyn -- one that would soon be shipped off to a foundling home during the ... winter. I too have wondered what Jason was hinting at during that particular scene. {Incidentally, it was wonderful hearing Victoria refer to herself as "Victoria Collins" in a subsequent episode, and how she liked the sound of that! There have also been other hints by other characters regarding her being a Collins, and this is years before the will is read by Carolyn after the series had been completed. For example, Carolyn says that Victoria is treated as though she is one of the family, and prior to the gathering for the seance, when Burke is being invited by Victoria (the latter having obtained permission to do so from Barnabas), he makes a comment that the party is only for 'family members.' I thought to myself, Victoria isn't a family member -- but quickly remembered that she actually is, albeit unknown to the viewing audience of the time.}
 
"Barnabas is really good at that one handed stranglehold, isn't he?"
 
LOL! Yes, he's very good at it. Did you ever ask yourself why Willie didn't suffer the same fate when Barnabas was initially released (other than it being in the script?) I think it's because Barnabas needed to find out what year it was, where he was, and what was going on, etc. Oh, and it's in the script, of course.
 
"I liked the scene with Barnabas and again Vickie where they feel Sarah's presence. It was fun watching Barnabas denying he felt a presence while still looking around the room."
 
As did I. That was IMO wonderful directing during that segment. When watching this show, one really does get the impression that they are watching a theatrical play, complete with blocking, contrary angles to draw out a character whom is not necessarily speaking, the astonishing variety of the sets, and so forth.
 
"Speaking of which, I don't know how he thinks he's going to dispose of Burke with everyone right there."
 
Not to mention that then they wouldn't have Burke (or rather, Anthony George) around to play Jeremiah in 1795.
 
"But Barnabas has other problems with the seance. Who is going to turn up? Will Josette curse out Barnabas in French like she did Laura - a lot of good that did the last time."
 
And as it turns out, two people whom Barnabas adores both show up at the party -- Josette (via Victoria) and ... Sarah (seen, interestingly enough, by Victoria).

 

[GeorgeJA]

 
"Did you ever ask yourself why Willie didn't suffer the same fate when Barnabas was initially released (other than it being in the script?) I think it's because Barnabas needed to find out what year it was, where he was, and what was going on, etc. Oh, and it's in the script, of course. "
 
No, Scott, but I did ask myself where did Willie get those cool threads for Barnabas? Besides finding out what year it was, he must also provided Willie with his measurements. It's a good thing Buzz didn't open that coffin! Imagine, Biker Barn /img/vbsmilies/htf/laugh.gif