No Reverse 3:2 Pulldown in Panasonic Plasma!

Discussion in 'Displays' started by HarpSingh, Aug 15, 2005.

  1. HarpSingh

    HarpSingh Agent

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    Just found out that the 42PX500U does not have reverse 3:2 pulldown. Tried to search this topic here and found a little bit.

    Based on what I read, if you are watching datastreams that are 480p, 720p, or 1080i, the 3:2 reverse pulldown is unnecessary, as the provider (or the DVD player) has already done the 3/2 for you.

    Does it make a difference in watching of regular broadcast channels from digital cable or satellite which is usually either 480i or 480p?

    Thanks.
     
  2. John S

    John S Producer

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    480p and above have already done this so no real need to have it on the display.

    Now Svideo sources like Laserdisc still do benefit greatly from 3:2 pulldown.

    It is not the worst thing in the world, simple line doubling is still pretty darn impressive with only the occasional jaggy to deal with from it.
     
  3. Michael TLV

    Michael TLV THX Video Instructor/Calibrator

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    Although one might ask the question ... if a $40 DVD player can do 3:2 ... why can't a TV?

    I'd figure that it can ... just not listed in the literature ... because it isn't a big deal item anymore.

    Just feed it a 480i signal and watch some material like the opening of ST-insurrection to see if the roof tops are all jaggie ... that's it.

    Regards
     
  4. Jerome Grate

    Jerome Grate Cinematographer

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    If it's a big deal for you and it looks terrible, then maybe video processor like a used Iscan-Pro might be a cheap and quick fix. I have one so I can feed S-Video through component and have scaled to 480p and I love the picture from S-VHS and Satellite broadcast. Picked one up for about 120.00 and I thought it was money well spent. If the difference is slight and you can live with it, then let it go.
     
  5. Michael TLV

    Michael TLV THX Video Instructor/Calibrator

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    It should be noted that 3:2 isn't going to improve anything that isn't film based. It will do nothing for sports programming.

    The biggest benefits would be for film based TV series or movies.

    It won't save any programming and make it watchable. There is usually so much wrong with the source TV signal that it just can't do enough to salvage an image. Think of it as taking a 30% image up to 35% if that ... marginally less crappy ... but still crappy all the same.

    Regards
     
  6. HarpSingh

    HarpSingh Agent

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    I understand that the only place I might see a benefit is with movies (24 fps) and that is what I was trying to figure out if it was important with the "crappy" 480i signal. You are probably right in that the its not going to make a meaningful difference.

    This is my first "big screen" HD (42px500), and I must say that I am pleasantly surprised with the picture quality on "crappy" SD signal. My expectations were must have been really low; I was expecting an almost unwatchable, noisy, blocky and soft picture. And this was the reason I did not want to go higher than a 42", given my viewing distance. But now, having had this for 4 days and being "awe"-ed by the SD quality, I am considering swapping for the 50".
     
  7. Michael TLV

    Michael TLV THX Video Instructor/Calibrator

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    SD rarely gets to the point of being unwatchable. I watch it routinely on my 102" screen with the DLP projector. It is what it is ... still better than VHS. Makes perfect sense to me why it looks like that ... complaining about it won't help.

    Regards
     
  8. HarpSingh

    HarpSingh Agent

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    Going back to the 3:2 discussion, I watched Saving Private Ryan on this TV last night, playing the DVD on a Samsung 850 upscaling to 1080i via HDMI. During the action scenes, I did not see any interlacing but that is probably the Progressive Samsung. I'll try connecting my older non-progressive Hitachi via component and see if I notice any jagged interlacing in motion scenes.

    What I did notice in SPRyan was "judder" in high contrast areas motion scenes (which is, I think, "seeing the seperate images" one after another that make up the motion). But then, my eyes can see flicker even on a computer screen - I can tell if my screen has a refresh rate of less than 85. In fact, I sometimes see "judder" even in cinema halls (at 24 fps?), again at high contrast motion edges, such as a dark building moving into view over a bright sky.

    Another question: I was told (by a salesman), that unless I spend at least $500 on an upscaling DVD player, it might be better for me to just go for a regular progressive-scan DVD player, and let the 42PX500 do the upscaling. How is the scaler on this plasma? I was thinking of buying the Panasonic S97, but should I just go for a cheapy DVD player instead?
     
  9. Michael TLV

    Michael TLV THX Video Instructor/Calibrator

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    $500 or more for upscaling DVD ...? I don't think so. YOu can get very good upscaling performance from a $250 Panasonic or even the $200 LG units.

    Easiest to tell which does a better job on test patterns.

    Regards
     
  10. Luis Gabriel Gerena

    Luis Gabriel Gerena Second Unit

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    How about the OPPO?
     
  11. Jerome Grate

    Jerome Grate Cinematographer

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    Oppo, is getting pretty good reviews over at AVS. Go there and read the complete thread on it.
     
  12. HarpSingh

    HarpSingh Agent

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    How is the scalar in this Panny? How about using the TV to do the upscaling and using just a regular progressive DVD player?
     
  13. Allan Jayne

    Allan Jayne Cinematographer

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    If the TV in question has small zone (almost pixel by pixel) "motion adaptive" de-interlacing, the picture quality will come close to that of 3-2 pulldown recognition and retention on film sources.

    Motion adaptive de-interlacing is still the standard for reasonably priced good non-film de-interlacing.

    3-2 pulldown recognition & retention has the edge when it comes to sharpness of moving subject matter but the difference is very small for stationary subject matter.

    De-interlacing and scaling are (and should be) two separate processes done in that order, thus the possibility of doing de-interlacing in the DVD player and scaling in the TV with a 480p signal going in between.

    If you are shopping for a progressive DVD player it is a good idea to (do a Google search for Stacy Spears Secrets Shootout) and read the DVD player reviews.

    Not all progressive players with 3-2 pulldown R&R also have motion adaptive de-interlacing. If I had to choose one or the other I would go with motion adaptive, just my opinion.

    Video hints:
    http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/viddoubl.htm
     
  14. HarpSingh

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    I am still not closer to a decision on what DVD player to buy with this TV. Do I need oversampling DVD player or not? Should I let the TV do the oversampling? Is Panasonic plasma and the Faroudja a really bad combination (macroblocks)? Is it important to buy a DVD player with a different scalar chip?

    Questions and questions... Until then, I keep buying players, trying them out to check the quality, and then returning them. I found that the Samsung 850 was not bad at all with 1080i output.
     
  15. Kevin C Brown

    Kevin C Brown Producer

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    Actually, the commercial Panasonic plasmas do have 3:2 pulldown. You can have it on, or off. When it's off, the pro models use simple line doubling to convert from an interlaced image to progressive.

    It is strange that the consumer models don't, since the pro models do.
     
  16. Kevin C Brown

    Kevin C Brown Producer

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    Confirmed: latest Home Theater Magazine reviews the 42px500u. No 3:2 pulldown deinterlacing in the consumer models. Just simple line doubling.

    Commercial models do have it.
     
  17. HarpSingh

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    If the DVD players does the 3:2 pulldown, do you still need it in the TV?
     
  18. Kevin C Brown

    Kevin C Brown Producer

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    No. And usually, even if both the display and player have it, the player's is better.
     

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