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No center channel, thoughts? (1 Viewer)

Albert Damico

Stunt Coordinator
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Jul 8, 2002
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118
As I mentioned, I had an Infinity CC2, as well as a CC3, and then an Infinity HPS center channel speaker. None of the Infinity center channel speakers matched well with my RS3's, RS4's or Overture 2's. Dialog was always too muddy. I am a little hesitant about trying another Infinity. The Axiom VP-150 is an outstanding Center, the best I have heard, but I believe that other than experimenting with speaker placement, I will probably get rid of the towers, purchase three exact same speakers for the front and even given the height difference, mount them all vertically. But I have not given up hope on getting these to blend!
 

Phil*K

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Jan 23, 2003
Messages
170
Hey Albert,

I haven't heard any of the speakers you mentioned and not to push anything, but the Il36 was stated in SGHT as one of the best center channels at any price and has always gotten great reviews. The IL60 set, including the IL36 and IL10 are borderline AA rated in SGHT last years recomended list and discontinued, but recommended in this years list. Not bad for what you can get it for.

But considering your wanting to keep what you have, have you tried putting a stand in front of your TV and placing your center on that. I'm not sure how this would look with your TV. Anyway, just a thought.

Good Luck,

Phil
 

MarkO

Second Unit
Joined
Feb 19, 1999
Messages
309
I think it all comes down to quality of center speaker. Most manufactures just place the same tweeter and drivers in a horizontal box and call it a center. I was Reading a post by Patric Butler, a distributor of such speakers as REL, Sons Faber, and Vienna acoustics. He really knows allot about audio. He stated that some manufactures actually voice their centers on top of a RPTV to account for the large amount of reflection the Tv will produce. Just a thought,,,,
 

Albert Damico

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Jul 8, 2002
Messages
118
I pushed the towers in. I pushed them out. I tilted them and aimed them with my trusty laser. I played drama, action, SciFi, Horror, everything I could throw at them. To my ear and IMO there is a hollowness that I can't get rid of. I put my center channel back in. I aimed it. I positioned it. I moved it off of my tv and put it on a shelf so it sat beneath the screen. What was the solution? I just bought three exact Dunlavy SC-1av speakers and when they arrive, I believe my problem will be solved.
 

Chris Tsutsui

Screenwriter
Joined
Feb 1, 2002
Messages
1,865
Even though I currently do not use a center channel, I would have to agree that most home theaters will benefit from a center channel.

Lets take three identical speakers across the sound stage all equal distant from the listener and angled appropriately competing against 2 identical speakers also setup properly.

Now think about how the hollow sound is created in the first place. When you have 2 stereo speakers both playing simultaneously, there are effectively 2 points of radiating sound. This could mean more room interactions (reflections) and less focus on a single center sound stage. What do you think sounds more focused, a single speaker playing a vocal, or 2 speakers playing together to try and imitate one speaker?

With a single center channel playing, the sound needs only to come from one source. Benefits include a bigger sweet spot and less room reflections. However, if stereo speakers can produce identical sound in an anechoic type environment (less reflections). I think that it will be nearly indestinguishable between that phantom center and the real center.

Some drawbacks of a center could be that you need three identical speakers and performance, and proper placement/positioning of three speakers instead of 2. I do know that a lot of centers don't match the mains exactly, but then again there are stereo speakers that don't have drivers that have had their frequency responses matched. :D

So in conclusion, if your room is properly acoustically treated, then a sweet 4.1 setup can easily outperform or match a sweet 5.1 home theater. I do know that a lot of rooms have reflections that prevent perfect sound stages which would then make a center channel a wiser choice IMO.

So in the end, I guess I'm not for or against, it really depends on the quality, setup, listening position, and room. :D

depends, depends, depends

btw, I run 4.1 with acoustic treatments galore but plan on getting a center to widen the sweetness.
 

Randy G

Second Unit
Joined
May 18, 2000
Messages
460
2 things:

1) Tony Genovese was correct in what he said...go re-read it. A phantom center and a real center DO sound different..there's a slight bit of hollowness(a psychoacoustic artifact) to a phantom center image, but whether that's annoying is your call. Regular stereo with a phantom center sounds great to me because it tends to produce an overall LARGER image than most center channels do with the dialogue. Unfortunately, when you're seated off-center, the image collapses to the nearest speaker.

2) Hey, did ya's ever think about getting both a center channel speaker and a processor or receiver with the full implementation of DPL II or Logic 7 or Tri-Field and you'll be able to dial in as much or as little of that center channel as you see fit? Even Mirage offered such a device YeArS ago(LFX-3).
 

Ricky T

Supporting Actor
Joined
Oct 28, 1999
Messages
921
A couple of years ago, I went a couple of months with a phantom center. Mains were NHT 2.9 and later 3.3 towers. The sound was good, and acceptable. Then I bought the NHT audiocenter2, which has matching upper drivers to my 3.3s. The AC2 is placed on top of a big 56inch HDTV. I tilt it down quite a bit, and aimed straight at my head :) Last year, I did some A/B tests with and without the center, level matching with the RS meter to offset volume differences.

I agree with Albert...Hollow is the word. My friend noticed this; and I think we might have done some blind tests too. Unless your center sucks compared to your mains, I don't think you are maximizing your surround by trying to get two speakers to reproduce three discrete signals.
 

Richard Burzynski

Second Unit
Joined
Jun 30, 1997
Messages
466
I'm the friend Ricky is referring to. We did the test after he first got his AC2. We calibrated phantom and then inserted the center and recalibrated and in his system, the center channel information was more dynamic WITH the center.

I am 50/50 on the topic myself. I believe and even recommend running phantom to friends/family, depending on the situation. Here is my take:

Approx. 75% (on average) of a soundtrack is center channel info. I only believe in using a center channel speaker if (1) its up to the task, and (2) you actually have some place to put it.

Most of my friends and family, who are often on a budget, have decent to good mains, and can only "squeeze" a center into the system by compromising on quality. Why would you want to introduce an INFERIOR speaker into the mix, especially one that will do 75% of the work during a movie? I just hooked up my Aunt's & Uncles first HT. He was attached to his old Fisher tower mains, nice tall wooden 3 ways - which sound real good in stereo. Our option was to get a MISMATCHED and tiny center or run phantom. Phantom sounds nice and FULL with those mains and his system layout.

Let's use Ricky's system as an example. Before NHT created the AC2 (matching center to 2.9's and the 3.3's, the only option that NHT fans had, was the AC1. I hated that speaker from the day I bought one (I used to have 2.5i's). It was inferior, compared to the performance capabilities of the larger mains. However, the AC2, a very nice 3- way design is a KILLER center channel speaker. If the AC2 didn't exist, I think Ricky might even prefer going Phantom.

Now consider that several speaker brands put out great mains and surrounds, but inferior centers, and I can see a strong argument for going phantom. Energy Veritas comes to mind. WONDERFUL sounding mains, and a ho hum 2-way center. I wasn't wowed first time I heard it and neither were some professional reviewers when the latest Veritas line came out - supposedly, Energy is going to release an "improved" version. This is just one example.

The Aerial Centers, the CC3 and CC5, get praised for maybe being the best centers out there, with good reason, they are quality performers that match their mains.

So, if your speaker company doesn't make a good matching center, or if you don't have anywhere to put it, go phantom, and you may be better off.

Rich B.
 

Ricky T

Supporting Actor
Joined
Oct 28, 1999
Messages
921
Rich,

I think most main speakers have matching center speakers. IF you don't believe, list the various speakers that most people buy and you'll see that a matching center exists:

Paradigm Studios = YES
ALL NHTs = YES
B&W = YES
 

Richard Burzynski

Second Unit
Joined
Jun 30, 1997
Messages
466
Matching center, yes. My point is, however, that certain brand centers may be timber matched, but they may not be as good performers, meaning not as good as the mains are. You mentioned a few brands that have good centers, but there are brands that don't.

One thing that I like about the THX spec, is that it calls for "identical" 3 speakers across the front. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the "identical" refers to identical dispersion characteristics. For those few brands (in comparison to all speakers brands) that are THX certified, they usually have a well-matched front set of 3 speakers (center & mains). Then there are other brands that may not be THX, but still make a good center. And there are those that do not.

Rich B.
 

Ricky T

Supporting Actor
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Oct 28, 1999
Messages
921
Try listing 10 speakers that forum members would buy as mains and we can see whether or not their centers are as you state.
 

Richard Burzynski

Second Unit
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Jun 30, 1997
Messages
466
Fair enough. I will work on a list.

Now it's your turn, answer me this:
If NHT never made an AC2 (VC3), what would you do for a center?

Rich B.
 

Ricky T

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Oct 28, 1999
Messages
921
No AC2? I would use the AC1 or VC3. The NHT 3.3s were introduced in 1995 as a music speaker before 5.1 became popular; ditto for people trying to find matching center for old towers from the 80s. And NHT DID make the AC2, which has been out a few years now. But how is this relevant today? The VC3 was created with the VT3 system. All other NHTs have matching center speakers; and IMO in this age of 5.1/7.1, almost all speaker systems will have matching centers.

Here are some example of main speakers that have good centers:

- Rockets
- Divas
- Aerials
- Revels
- Atlantic Technology
- M&K
- Klipsch
- all NHTs
- Paradigms
- Def Tech

Which one of the brands have main speakers that do not have a center that you would rather go with Phantom instead? I can't think of any.
 

Jim A. Banville

Supporting Actor
Joined
Jun 20, 1999
Messages
630
Ricky T, "most people" (I would include "friends and family" in that), the VAST majority of which aren't HT enthusuaists, own speaker brands like Sony, Kenwood and Pioneer (or WORSE), all of which offer too many sub-par center speakers and not many, if any, decent centers.

By the way, when I did have a center speaker, it was placed on a small stand in front of my RPTV. MUCH better than the alternative :)
 

Pasquale

Auditioning
Joined
Dec 22, 2002
Messages
10
After having read this whole thread I would like to pose a question. I am about to purchase new speakers to replace my aged B&W 570's. I am looking at Mirage speakers and that brings me to my question in regards to a center channel. Would I be better off purchasing the OM9's with the OMC3 center channel or upgrade to the OM7's and not use a center channel?

One thing I did notice was the OM7's sounded as good without a subwoofer as the OM9's did with a subwoofer. Of course that was just with music and I suspect when watching a Movie I would appreciate the Subwoofer even with the full range OM7's or would I?

I understand this is all subjective but I would appeciate any comments.

Peace, Pat
 

Albert Damico

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Jul 8, 2002
Messages
118
Man:

I forgot I posted this, it was so long ago. Funny to see it resurface. An update. I received my Dunlavy speakers. I custom built some stands for them and after aiming the mains at a height where the tweeters in them exactly hit my ears seated in my HT movie watching chair, I then played for a few weeks with the placement. Toed in and out at different angles. The third Dunlavy, which is an EXACT same speaker as the mains is pointed down so that it's tweeter hits me ear as well. I adjusted them with my SPL meter. I adjusted them for distance. I repositioned my sub and set my B&K to see it as a THX sub. (it goes down to 17Hz) I watched a few movie scenes, made some additional adjustments to compensate for room acoustics. And then settled down to watch my first movie from start. My wife and I pulled the velvet curtains, settled in, made sure the room was black. (I even recalibrated my TV with Video Essentials, and made a few more tweaks in the service menu) I think I posted this before, but the result was nothing short of stunning. I don't know what I expected to hear and see when I started this, 5+ years, three different systems, and $20K ago. But the end result far surpasses what I had anticipated. My vote is for a center channel, a center channel that is an exact match of the mains, and speakers that carry an "audiophile" tag with them. I used to love my Infinity's (Overture 2's, RS4's, RS3's) and my Axiom's, but IMO they are not in the same class as the Dunlavy's that I bought. I know, I know, you hear what you expect to hear, but really...no I mean it, really, the difference is stunning and I can state that I am finished with my system. Except I was thinking of adding a Laser Disc player, and oh yeah, I don't have a Tivo yet, and man on man that front projector looks really good, so much better than my Mits 65" RPTV...
 

JimmyK

Second Unit
Joined
Jun 21, 2002
Messages
479
Real Name
Jim
No AC2? I would use the AC1 or VC3. The NHT 3.3s were introduced in 1995 as a music speaker before 5.1 became popular; ditto for people trying to find matching center for old towers from the 80s. And NHT DID make the AC2, which has been out a few years now.
The AC2 was a good match for my ADS L1290's that I purchased new in 1986.

I tried 5 different centers (I have a great dealer who let me take each one home to try out before buying) including the AC1 and was not happy with the results. I was beginning to think I would not be able to find a good match.

Though my dealer did not stock the AC2, he offered to order it for me with no obligation to buy. I must say the AC2 was a BIG improvement over the AC1. The sound of the AC2 really matches my ADS towers well. Since then I also upgraded my surrounds to the NHT SB-1's and have been very satisfied with the results.

As I stated in a previous post, if I had not found a good center to match my ADS towers, I would have gone without a center since I do not want to give up my ADS towers.

JimmyK
 

Paul Padilla

Supporting Actor
Joined
Jan 15, 2002
Messages
767
I came across this thread hoping to find some info on a slightly different question. We've recently remodeled our family room to include an inset above our fireplace for a 43" or 50" plasma. My wife was completely on board with having a complete surround system (we're having custom cabinets built for either side to house the gear). When I began to discuss a center channel speaker, she got a little thrown, as she hadn't realized that a speaker would have to be somewhere in that position under the screen...I'll spare you all the details why. My question would be,

What would you think about two smaller speakers on either side of the screen wired in series (Ohm load & Amp permitting)using the center channel signal...in addition to the L & R mains?

I realize I may just be overtaking the plumbing here, but I thought I'd get some other heads scratching. Even though it's just the two of us, we're rarely both sitting in what would be the sweet spot if I were to forgo the center channel altogether.

IMHO, it really does seem to me that the center channel isn't just the amalgam of signals from the mains in mono, but a dedicated and independently mixed component of the sound field. Why else would all of us HT nuts go to the trouble of pink noise sweeps and DB meters? The left and right speakers may carry some of the same signal, but as one post said,


We're dealing with apples and...well two different types of apples, anyway. Stereo music recordings can use all sorts of techniques to affect the psychoacoustic image, double or triple tracking a vocal just for starters. The vocals in a music recording are intended to be dead center the vast majority of the time, whereas movies are more dynamic.

Feel free to let me know if I'm completely insane with the two speaker idea above.
 

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