NFL 2016-17 Regular Season Discussion (1 Viewer)

[Malcolm R]

The question now is do the Patriots still want to trade Garoppolo?

Given how he's played so far, I think they'd be crazy to trade him. I'd like to see him groomed to take over for Brady.

I'm afraid that Belichick's achilles heel may be to allow Brady to determine how long he continues to play/start, rather than making the decision that's best for the team. I may be the minority, but I do feel that Brady has lost a step or two in recent years. I would like to see an active plan of succession at QB rather than blindly sticking with Brady until he has a Favre-style flameout, unable to admit that he's "lost it," and takes the whole team over the cliff with him.

 

[atfree]

Given how he's played so far, I think they'd be crazy to trade him. I'd like to see him groomed to take over for Brady.

I'm afraid that Belichick's achilles heel may be to allow Brady to determine how long he continues to play/start, rather than making the decision that's best for the team. I may be the minority, but I do feel that Brady has lost a step or two in recent years. I would like to see an active plan of succession at QB rather than blindly sticking with Brady until he has a Favre-style flameout, unable to admit that he's "lost it," and takes the whole team over the cliff with him.

Unfortunately for the Pats, Garapolo may end up being next years Brock Osweiler...as a non-first round pick (I believe he was 2nd or 3rd round), he only has a 4-year rookie contract (as opposed to the 5th year option teams have with 1st rounders), and I believe this is his 3rd year. So, if his agent is smart, he'll not agree to any extensions this year or next and play out the deal and hit the free agent market in 2018 much like Osweiler did and try to get a huge deal. Even if he never plays another game for the Pats (assuming Brady stays healthy and his skills don't deteriorate rapidly), he will have the 2 games this year to whet the appetites of desperate GM's much as Osweiler had the 7 games last year.

 

[Aaron Silverman]

The game has come a long way from the toss power sweep. In some ways Lombardi and Belichick are the same in that their players won/win games because they execute better and are more fundamentally sound. This is something they both emphasized but where it becomes something totally different is when it comes down to the chess match on the field. This is where Belichick towers over other coaches. His game plans are different every week. He has completely dissected what the other team is capable of and will do and prepared his players for it to the extent that they are far ahead of their opponent.

Honestly, I am starting to think that Belichick is possibly the greatest coach of all time in ANY sport. I'm trying to think of someone who had as great an effect on the outcomes of games, but it's not going very well.

Patriots Put Helen Keller in at Quarterback; Somehow Still Manage to Win

Garoppolo and Brissett were both at practice today, so it looks like at least one of 'em should be good to go next Sunday. Unless they decide to put AJ Derby under center, just to mess with Rex. . .

 

[Scott Merryfield]

Personally, I don't think it is possible to "overrate" a QB that has taken his team to 6 Super Bowls, won 4, and does nothing but win games for his team. But fans can be fun...

I do not understand people thinking Brady is overrated based on a few regular season wins by other Pats QB's, either. While New England won 11 games with Cassel the year Brady was out, remember that was essentially the same team that went 16-0 with Brady, and New England missed the playoffs that season. Somehow I think the team would have been in the post season had Brady been behind center.

If Brady's overrated, I guess Montana is, too, since he had the great Bill Walsh as a head coach and the team also won after Montana left and Steve Young took over.

 

[Aaron Silverman]

It's only a fluke that the Cassel-led Pats missed the playoffs. They were only the second 11-5 team to miss the playoffs (in the current format). I think there might have been one more since, but I'm not sure.

People often compare Brady to Montana. . .Garoppolo kinda looks like Steve Young, doesn't he?

 

[Scott Merryfield]

I know this is the NFL thread, but this guy will be playing on Sunday next year. If you haven't seen it yet, watch this incredible interception by Michigan's Jourdan Lewis in yesterday's game versus Wisconsin. Lewis may be the best CB in NCAA football this season.



I was at the game yesterday. A big time college game is more fun to attend in person than an NFL game, IMO. The atmosphere was electric, with two top 10 teams facing off, 111,000 fans chanting, the bands playing, etc. The Big House is not a comfortable place to watch a game, with the bench seats and too little space for each fan, but it's still a great experience.

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

Given how he's played so far, I think they'd be crazy to trade him. I'd like to see him groomed to take over for Brady.

I'm afraid that Belichick's achilles heel may be to allow Brady to determine how long he continues to play/start, rather than making the decision that's best for the team. I may be the minority, but I do feel that Brady has lost a step or two in recent years. I would like to see an active plan of succession at QB rather than blindly sticking with Brady until he has a Favre-style flameout, unable to admit that he's "lost it," and takes the whole team over the cliff with him.

Well, I think my choice at this moment would be to keep Garoppolo. The problem will be at the end of the season teams will likely start making offers for him and the Patriots will end up weighing those offers. The lousy part for both Garoppolo and the Patriots and the teams that may want to trade for him is that Jimmy played less than a game and a half in his audition. So, you have to judge him on less than 6 quarters of play. Unless something happens to Brady during the rest of the season we likely won't have another shot to see Garoppolo in real game action for a while.

The main reason I would want to keep him is because look at the QBs that are missing time with injuries. Both Carson Palmer and Cam Newton went down yesterday. It is certainly a nice place to be to have a QB that can step in and play the way Garoppolo played against the Dolphins for a quarter plus 2/3s of the second quarter.

The problem is Garoppolo and his agent know there is a payday and a starting job waiting for him somewhere and the last year he is under contract to the Patriots is 2017. So, all he needs to do is refuse to resign with the Patriots and at the end of 2017 if Brady wants to continue to play there will be a big decision to be made because they likely will not want to pay two QBs "franchise QB" money.

I think the only lure for Jimmy is the idea that if he stays with the Patriots and Belichick he has a chance to compete for Super Bowl rings on a regular basis. If he goes to the Browns or Bears his career could tank. So, he'd get paid but he would probably play on dismal teams and never achieve the kind of success he might playing on Belichick coached teams. Really, the chance to play for Belichick is a huge opportunity but when a team offers you millions of dollars to play for them you can't knock the kid if that's the direction he wants to go.

Look at poor Andrew Luck...he is an outstanding talent, he can nearly win games on his own and the Colts pretty much count on him to do so but he is with a horrible franchise, with a terrible owner, bad GM, and a nice guy coach who is not able to correct the issues with the team. So, Luck can work hard, play his ass off, and he has to accept loss after loss. I feel bad for the kid he should be on the phone to his agent asking for a trade.

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

Honestly, I am starting to think that Belichick is possibly the greatest coach of all time in ANY sport. I'm trying to think of someone who had as great an effect on the outcomes of games, but it's not going very well.

He is certainly one of the greatest NFL coaches in the history of the game and I believe he has done it at a time where it is much more difficult to have sustained success. When Vince Lombardi coached he did not have to worry about free agency and players leaving every year. He did not have to deal with insane contracts and salary caps. Lombardi did not have to deal with constant rules changes that favor offense over defense because the owners and league know that's what people pay to see and want for their "fantasy teams."

Lombardi did not have to deal with a league that wants parity above all else and that does not want teams to dominate year after year. The league has pushed to make it more difficult for this to happen and literally changes the rules if they feel a team is able to create an advantage. Plus now the league has precedent to punish and suspend players randomly and at will...not a good thing. It was always the dream of owners to be able to do this and now they have achieved that dream.

People that understand football know what Belichick has done and is doing is amazing. He's kept the game a great game to watch because his teams actually play great football while the league itself has worked to destroy the game. If Vince was around today I think he would walk away from this NFL in total disgust.

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

If Brady's overrated, I guess Montana is, too, since he had the great Bill Walsh as a head coach and the team also won after Montana left and Steve Young took over.

Well, I do think that players like Brady and Montana had a big advantage because they played for great coaches. There is no question that Walsh and Belichick were/are above other NFL coaches as tacticians. They both also took/take a professorial approach to coaching that has nothing to do with screaming at players or trying to wind them up with rah rah speeches. So, would Brady and Montana be as successful as they were had they not had these coaches...I tend to think they would not but who knows.

The interesting thing about Brady and Montana is they were not 1st round draft choices and so they needed to go into situations where the team they went to both recognized their talents and were willing to develop them. Belichick loves taking low round draft choices and developing them into great players so he likely would have paid much more attention to Tom Brady and working with him than another team likely would have with a 6th round choice that performed horribly at the NFL combine and was not thought to be a great athlete nor did he really light it up in college. I mean Brady has held a grudge against the entire NFL since he was the last QB chosen in that draft and since the 49ers took the great Giovanni Carmazzi (QB Hofstra) in the 3rd round...which was where Brady wanted to go...but the truth is he was not a great prospect and failed to impress anybody at the combine. Belichick liked Brady because he thought he was smart, very coachable, and came out of a big time program...not because he was physically gifted or looked like the prototypical NFL QB. In fact if you look at Brady at the combine he looks lanky, awkward, clumsy and too thin. There is no trace of what he was about to become.

I think two things made Tom Brady...Belichick and Brady's absolutely insane work ethic and commitment to football. The only guy that may compare with Brady in the work ethic department is Jerry Rice...but I think even Rice would be astonished by what Brady puts himself through. Plus Rice was a 1st round pick and came into the league physically gifted but developed his workout regime so that he could continue to play at a high level. Rice and Brady though should be examples to all NFL players that if you put in the work you can play for a long time and be great.

 

[Scott Merryfield]

Lombardi did not have to deal with a league that wants parity above all else and that does not want teams to dominate year after year. The league has pushed to make it more difficult for this to happen and literally changes the rules if they feel a team is able to create an advantage. Plus now the league has precedent to punish and suspend players randomly and at will...not a good thing. It was always the dream of owners to be able to do this and now they have achieved that dream.

Yes, attempting to compare players or coaches from different eras is a futile exercise, as the game has changes so much over the decades. The NFL I grew up with in the 1970's looked nothing like today's game. The Steelers were an amazing team in the '70's, but there is no way that team would have been able to be kept together for as long as it was under today's free agency and salary cap rules. And today's Steeler team, with their wide open offense and gambling for 2 point conversions plays nothing like the '70's version which won with incredible defense and a strong running game.

The best we can do is recognize the truly great players and coaches within each era. Belichick is clearly head and shoulders above every other coach in the game today, and Brady is a guaranteed first ballot Hall of Famer.

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

So, basically the preseason just ended. I say that because the first 4 games of the regular season really is the preseason. You get four games of not so great football where teams are finally playing the majority of their good players and these 4 games really are the tune-up games. Now the season really starts and we should have a good idea where these teams are going.

Some observations at the quarter pole...

The Cardinals are a pretty major disappointment. There were apparently warning signs all during the summer that Carson Palmer was not right but most people felt he was just working out the kinks and come regular season he would be fine. Well, he has not been fine and now he has a concussion. It's looking like the Cardinals, "the most talented roster in the NFL", are in trouble. They head to San Francisco on a short week to play a 49ers team they should have been heavily favored to beat and that are contemplating a change at QB themselves because Blaine Gabbert is not exactly wowing anybody. If the 49ers manage to beat the Cardinals on Thursday night I think Arians could be dealing with a team that is spiraling out of control.

On the opposite end of that spectrum are the Vikings. A team that looked to be in a lot of trouble when they lost their starting QB and then lost their all-pro running back but the Vikings have a Super Bowl worthy defense it seems. Plus Bradford looks to be in the best system for his skill set he has ever been in and appears to be making a huge difference for this team. At the start of the season it seemed like an easy thing to do to hand this division to the Packers but it seems they now have a major fight on their hands. Plus facing the Vikings defense is starting to look like it may be as nasty as facing the Broncos defense.

The Panthers are another disappointment. Cam Newton has been pummeled this season so far, now has a concussion, and is not looking like an MVP. That is of course an issue but the Panthers defense also looks like they are having some serious issues. The big issue for QBs that run around is they are likely to take some nasty hits and this has been the case for Newton. It's starting to look like the Panthers may not make the playoffs. A battered QB and a shaky defense is a recipe for disaster.

You must be pretty happy if you are a Rams fan. Somehow this team has climbed to 3-1 with wins over division rivals the Seahawks and Cardinals...both looked at as playoff teams coming into the season. This is actually typical Jeff Fisher stuff...every time he is in a position where he is likely to get fired in his coaching career his teams somehow pull out some wins that allow him to keep his job. The problem is Fisher coached teams always go back to their losing ways. Plus who lit the fire under Case Keenum? The Rams do have a defense so when playing teams that are struggling on offense they certainly have a chance to stay in the game.

The Falcons look like they may have the best offense in the NFL. They do however have a pretty shaky defense. At the moment though they look like the team everybody will be chasing in the NFC South.

Looks like the Paxton Lynch era in Denver may have begun. I believe Trevor Siemian suffered the same injury as Jimmy Garoppolo and so it is not season ending and he should be available to play within a couple of weeks...depending upon results from today's MRI. Makes next Sunday's showdown between what may be the league's best offense in the Falcons against what may be the league's best defense in the Broncos all the more interesting. Lynch looked good in relief yesterday so I think it will be fun seeing him play.

I was happy to see the Jaguars win in merry old England yesterday. I keep picking them every week and so it was finally nice to be right. Of course the win came against that horrid Colts team that just makes me feel bad about watching because Andrew Luck is such a good young player and he is surrounded by an organization that needs to be made over from top to bottom. I think the Jags will continue to get better following their rough 0-3 start. There is just too much talent on that team for them to not compete in the AFC South. The Texans are their biggest competition it seems and O'Brien is probably the best coach in the division so even without J.J. Watt they should still be good.

The Chargers so far are the best first half team in football...problem is they are also the worst second half team in football. They have blown leads in three games in the second half. Yesterday against New Orleans it was just sickening watching that final quarter. Two horrible fumbles...when Benjamin fumbled it looked like it was on purpose he just opened his arms and let go of the ball on his way to the ground. Totally unforced error. Every game so far this season they start the first half looking fantastic and then utterly collapse in the second half. They make insane mistakes each time the second half rolls around. It is just gut wrenching. It's been so horrible I can't even decide if I want to watch them play again or just turn the games off after the first half. I want to give Mike McCoy the benefit of the doubt but I just can't believe how horrible this team becomes after halftime. Just brutal. The ultimate Jekyll and Hyde team.

Which brings me to the two biggest ugliest hold-outs during the preseason. Joey Bosa and Ryan Fitzpatrick. Bosa can't even get on the field and has not played a down and Fitz is killing his team with interceptions and has been horrible. Great stuff from two guys that insisted on getting paid.

 

[Dheiner]

5 NFL championships in 7 years. 3 in a row. Just sayin'......

 

[Aaron Silverman]

Only 14 teams in the NFL. Just sayin'. . .

 

[Robert Crawford]

5 NFL championships in 7 years. 3 in a row. Just sayin'......

You're wasting your time with this Patriots crowd and it being a different era. It's like arguing Babe Ruth against Barry Bonds or any other modern day slugger.

 

[Aaron Silverman]

You're wasting your time with this Patriots crowd and it being a different era. It's like arguing Babe Ruth against Barry Bonds or any other modern day slugger.

Actually, Ruth wins that argument every time, because he's the only all-time great slugger who was also a superstar pitcher!

 

[Scott Merryfield]

Actually, Ruth wins that argument every time, because he's the only all-time great slugger who was also a superstar pitcher!

Imagine how good he would have been if steroids were available.

 

[Robert Crawford]

Imagine how good he would have been if steroids were available.

He was too busy fulfilling himself with food, drink and women.

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

And today's Steeler team, with their wide open offense and gambling for 2 point conversions plays nothing like the '70's version which won with incredible defense and a strong running game.

So, what was the deal with going for two on the first score of the game? I mean what was the point with that? I saw no reason to do that other than Tomlin just attempting to force something because his team was beaten so badly the week before.

 

[Scott Merryfield]

So, what was the deal with going for two on the first score of the game? I mean what was the point with that? I saw no reason to do that other than Tomlin just attempting to force something because his team was beaten so badly the week before.

Pittsburgh does that quite often since the kick was moved back to the 15 yard line. They practice the 2 point conversion a lot, and are very successful in converting.

Edit: I checked, and last season the Steelers were successful 8 out of 11 two point conversion attempts. No other team attempted more than 6 two point conversions, and the vast majority tried 4 or fewer. The rest of the league was 37 out of 83, or 44% successful, while the Steelers were successful 73% of the time. In 2014, Pittsburgh was 4 out of 4 - only one team tried more (Arizona was 2 for 5). So, over the last 3 seasons Pittsburgh has converted 81% of the time (they are 1 for 1 this season).

So, the question you should be asking is why don't they try the two point conversion even more often?

 

[Winston T. Boogie]

You're wasting your time with this Patriots crowd and it being a different era. It's like arguing Babe Ruth against Barry Bonds or any other modern day slugger.

I think everybody realizes that it does not make a lot of sense to compare players or coaches from different eras because the game has changed so much. I don't think anybody would debate that point. However, I also don't think it is difficult to understand that today's game presents a much greater challenge to a coach than coaching when Lombardi did.