Newbie IL60/speaker question

Discussion in 'Speakers' started by John Sand, Apr 19, 2004.

  1. John Sand

    John Sand Extra

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    Please help a newbie out. I have tried reading all that I can, but time is key here.
    I am a newbie(and new IL60 owner) to audio and have tried to read up on what I can. That said, I am very disappointed in what I hear from the IL60s(basswise) that I have. Now, I have a very crappy rack type all in one Sony system that has no real power. But, with the powered sub, I shouldn't have to worry about that should I? The bass just sounds way, way too tight. I know that speaker placement has some to do with the sound and break in can change some things... and I do have a RABOS kit that I haven't messed with too much. I just can't see how any positioning can make the bass drum not sound like a "thud" instead of a "boom" and such. Now, I have had buddies with SM120s and SM150s and I seem to remember those having the ability to turn Pink Floyd into some crushing bass. I know that memories aren't always accurate either. I am just very confused as to what to think of these things. I am wondering if I should go with some of the IL40s and a good powered sub or what. Can my all in one rack mount Sony Schmony be the culprit? Maybe it isn't capable of reproducing the freqs or something that I am expecting?

    The specs on the ancient amp part are: Power output and THD with 8ohm loads and with both channels driven, from 70-20,000Hz; rated 100 watts per channel minimum RMS power, with less than .9%THD from 250 milliwatts to rated output.

    Is this "amp/receiver" not capable of reproducing anything below the 70Hz? There is an adjustment band that says 63Hz for the speaker levels(up/down), but that just makes the bass thud more instead of boom. I have tried the differing gain settings on the front of the speakers and changing the position of the speakers,etc.

    I have a deal pending for an AVR525 for a great price and I am wondering whether this would be the ticket, or if I am just barking up the wrong tree. Any input would be appreciated!!!
     
  2. John Sand

    John Sand Extra

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    Oh yeah...I do have the low pass crossover set to "on"...
     
  3. I used to have a KLH sub (go ahead and laugh) and I hooked it up to a piece of crap bookshelf system and as long as it has an amp and a sub out there shouldn't be any problem. If you are going to have the low pass on then wire your speakers through the sub and set it for 80 for a ghetto system. Just like me get some money and upgrade quickly.
     
  4. Nathan W.

    Nathan W. Stunt Coordinator

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    He has to wire them through the sub since these are powered towers.[​IMG]

    How are they connected? As long as you already have it you might as well do a full calibration with the Rabos kit, but that amp does seem awefully suspect to me with the ratings you posted for it - it might be the cause of the bass thumpiness. My guess is the Infinitys will sound better with a new (or used) receiver with a LFE output. Even without using the LFE output a modern receiver should still sound good through those speakers. I have a IL-120s - the same sub as those in the towers but it's a stand alone model that includes a low pass freq adjustment and more speaker level connections for in and out. This sub can get really deep and loud while remaining clean and the ones in those towers should be able to also. I've never even bothered with a Rabos kit since it sounds great the way it is. But my sub's in a corner and that has a huge effect on it's output.
     
  5. Tony Genovese

    Tony Genovese Supporting Actor

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    Is the sub input set to "speaker" on the back of the IL60? Is the Bass Optimization system set to "off". That's where I'd start looking. Once you verifiy this, run through the RABOS and see if you're getting bass. You should be getting output to 25hz minimum.
     
  6. JohnnyG

    JohnnyG Screenwriter

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    The IL60's are capable of some pretty darn wicked bass output! You should:

    - have nothing more than a set of speaker wires going to each speaker
    - have the Sub Input switch set to 'Speaker' (up position)
    - have the Low-Pass Filter switch set to 'On' (up position)
    - RABOS switch set according to whether or not you've gone through the test tones and set the RABOS EQ.
    - Have each speaker plugged in
    - Note that the volume light on each speaker goes green when audio is playing

    My guess here is that your setting are all correct and you've used the RABOS tracks for "setting the subwoofer level" and find that there's insufficient bass. Well, me too! I don't know what the problem is, but I really think there might be something wrong with the test tones or something like that. I set my sub level using the AVIA disc and the results are quite satisfying, to say the least. The results with AVIA end up with the sub volume level being quite a bit higher than with RABOS.

    So, in lieu of having a disc like AVIA handy, just turn up the sub volume controls to suit your tastes.
     
  7. John Sand

    John Sand Extra

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    Well, I don't know that tight is the right word. I am thinking that it sounds more like the stock speakers in my truck when it tries to play something too low for it or something. Maybe muddy is the right term.

    I remember my buddy's car back in the early 90's. It had 4 Infinity amps powering 14 Infinity speakers( 12s, 6" midbass, midranges,etc) and 2 Dynaudio tweets. The rear deck had 2 Infinity 12s, along with a couple of other drivers. I think that the total power for the system was in the neighborhood of 1400 continuous watts or something like that. Now I know that a car setup is a totally different scenario and it was a professionally installed system with the amps tuned to give a flat frequency response-whatever that is. Now, that freakin' car would literally take my breath away with the bass. It would literally give you that feeling like you were being crushed. Now, we're not talking some punk with a pair of Fosgate 12's and 300 watt amp crankin' DJ Magic Mike in his bim boooooooom mobile. This was Pink Floyd, ambient stuff like Scorn, and even Madonna had some serious bass. I remember sitting in his garage and listening to something of Mozart's. We literally vibrated a large(3x5 foot or larger) picture off of the family room wall inside his mom's house.

    That same buddy's home system consisted of a couple of Infinity SM120s and some Kenwood and other equipment. I know we got the cops called on us quite a few times for the bass. I know that he eventually went to Marantz amps, preamps and M&K subs along with the SM stuff, but I don't remember that being due to a lack of bass.

    I am just feeling very disappointed in what I am hearing. I bought these IL60s through Harman online(they are a pair of rights) and have only a week or so more to return them. I have 12 gauge wire going to them.

    So, a "Y" splitter would make both the sub outputs and the front outputs from the receiver go to the speaker and the crossover would be what determines what freqs go to which of the drivers, right? Sorry for the dumb newbie questions, but thank you for all of the help!!!!

    I have messed with the little screw dealies for the subs, but maybe the different receiver will make all of the difference. I won't be able to get the HK 525 for a week or so, so I think I will go "demo" a 330 to see if the different setting and such will make a difference. I hope so because I got a great deal on these speakers and have always loved Infinity.
     
  8. Tony Genovese

    Tony Genovese Supporting Actor

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    Have you made sure the switches on the back are set correctly and it's getting power?
     
  9. Greg Bright

    Greg Bright Second Unit

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    John,
    This just has to be a connection problem. I've yet to have a complaint about my IL60s. Takes a really good sub to make a difference.

    Greg
     
  10. Nathan W.

    Nathan W. Stunt Coordinator

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    "So, a "Y" splitter would make both the sub outputs and the front outputs from the receiver go to the speaker and the crossover would be what determines what freqs go to which of the drivers, right? Sorry for the dumb newbie questions, but thank you for all of the help!!!!"

    Sounds like you've done or are contemplating doing something wrong here, like combine a sub out with a front speaker preout using a Y-adapter as a signal combiner. If that's the case, don't do it.

    If your amp has a single line level sub output, you can split it with a Y-adapter and send it to the "Subwoofer Line Level" input on each speaker and set the "Sub Input" on each speaker to "Line Level." Set the "low-pass filter" to "Off" to avoid double filtering. Then just run some speaker wire from the amp's L and R speaker outputs to the IL-60s "Speaker Level" inputs.

    If there's no line level sub out on the amp, just use the "Speaker Level" inputs and set the "Sub Input" to "Speaker." Set the "Low-Pass Filter" to "On."

    The speakers should still have good bass with the "Bass Optimization System" turned off - just not as good as it could sound after a complete calibration with the Rabos kit.
     
  11. John Sand

    John Sand Extra

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    Nathan, someone on AVS had mentioned that I get a y splitter. I am sure they were telling me to do the same thing that you are telling me to do and that I just didn't understand what they were saying. Like I have said, I am a rookie at this and just trying to learn what to do. My old all-in-one Sony has the old pinch type connectors. There is a set of pinch connectors for the, as Sony calls it, SuperWoofer.

    I just need to be able to get the HK 525 before the 30 days is up on my speakers to see if I can hook it up right and get it to sound like I want it to.
     
  12. John Sand

    John Sand Extra

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    ..and if my POS Sony is only rated from 70Hz-20,000Hz(which I assume is 20kHz), what does that mean exactly? I mean, maybe that's why I can't feel the bass like I think I should be able to. Does this mean that my receiver is not able to send anything below 70Hz to anywhere/any driver because it doesn't register/push anything/any signal below 70Hz? It almost seems to me like the 12s are blown. But I know they aren't.

    How much can any of you actually feel your bass?
     
  13. Nathan W.

    Nathan W. Stunt Coordinator

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    John,

    Too bad you didn't state this earlier. Those pinch connectors you're talking about are for a passive sub, meaning it's an amplified signal - a speaker level signal. DO NOT USE THIS CONNECTION! I'm not yelling - I just don't want you to ruin your speakers. That connection is useless for these speakers. If you adapted that amplified connection to the line level inputs on the speakers, you would undoubtedly damage the speakers. And since that connection is filtered, connecting it to the speaker connectors on the speakers would only give you bass - no midrange and highs. Man, I hope you didn't already do this because you may have damaged the amplifier and/or drivers in the speakers.

    Just use the L & R speaker outputs on the receiver to the speaker level inputs on the towers and you'll be fine.
     
  14. John Sand

    John Sand Extra

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    No, I didn't connect it up to the speakers because I didn't really think it would do anything. I just can't see how this could be any issue other than something in the old Sony POS limiting something. I mean, I can't see an SVS sounding a ton better than an Infinity. Maybe so, but I can't see the difference being night and day. Especially since I have seen the IL120 so highly thought of and highly rated and these should be identical to that, other than box design.


    Nathan, don't worry, I didn't think you were yelling. Even if you would have been, I would have been appreciative of the fact that you were trying to save me from damaging my subs! Thanks!
     
  15. Tony Genovese

    Tony Genovese Supporting Actor

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    John:

    As has been asked in the same threads on AVS and HTF, have you confirmed that the switches are in the right position? You still haven't answered this question. Yes or no? You should be tickled with the bass from the IL60 unless they're not getting power, the switches are in the wrong position, their defective, or last but not least, you are unfamiliar with quality bass. For the second time, use the RABOS and measure the bass individually for each channel. Takes about 10 minutes. Then go here:

    http://www.infinitysystems.com/home...bos/rabos1.aspx

    punch in your measurements and adjust the speaker to bring down any humps you may have. Takes another 10 minutes. Invest 20 minutes and let us know what you find. Do you read the suggestions here and try to implement them or do you just want complain about the lack of bass?
     
  16. JohnnyG

    JohnnyG Screenwriter

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    I'm thinking that the problem here is entirely within that Sony receiver you're using. If it has a powered sub connection, it was likely sold with, and designed for, a specific set of Sony speakers. Who knows what kind of crossover is built-into the system and even what kind of impedance it's expecting the speakers to have.

    Try ANY other receiver - even if it's just an old 2-channel stereo receiver you've got kicking around - before deciding against the speakers.

    Like I said, the IL60s are fantastic speakers and have prodigious bass output when set up correctly. You do have TWO 12" 500Watt subwoofers, after all [​IMG]
     
  17. John Sand

    John Sand Extra

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    Thanks for the responses! Yes, I do have the switches in the appropriate positions and have experimented with both those and the RABOS settings. That is why I am so disappointed.

    I will be picking up a receiver of some sort this weekend to "demo" until I can send the payment for the 525.

    The Sony system did come with a set of 5.1 speakers, so I hope like heck thatthe problem is there.

    I just expected the ability to vibrate something off the walls with those speakers if I really wanted to. I can't even feel the bass from a few feet away on the song Sorrow by Pink Floyd. My wife says that things are vibrating upstairs, so maybe this is a combination of the limitations of the Sony and my expectations being unrealistic. Maybe I need something that isn't so accurate?
     
  18. John Sand

    John Sand Extra

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    ...should it be possible to bottom these subs out with a bass drum with the volume turned up below half?

    Read the following only if you like Metallica....


    Specifically, I was listening to Bleeding Me by Metallica and wanting to hear Jason Newstead's bass as it kicks in on that song. So, I turned it up and the first time Lars kicks the bass drum, it bottoms out the sub. I know other specifics can factor into this like the settings on the EQ on this POS, but man. I am in dire need of a good receiver. I may have to have my buddy bring his AVR300 over ASAP!
     
  19. John Sand

    John Sand Extra

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    Tony, here are my initial readings at 9ft from the closest speaker in a room that is approximately 20' wide with a ceiling that vaults from 8' to 16' in that 9 feet from the speaker to my listening position.With all 3 settings at full clockwise and the freqs on the receivers eq set flat and the gain controls on each speaker are set at about 5, here are the results:

    100Hz:between -1 and -2
    95Hz: -3
    90Hz: between -4 and -5
    85Hz: between -4 and -5
    80Hz: -4
    77Hz: -4
    72Hz: 0db
    66Hz: 0db
    63Hz: -3
    56Hz: -7
    52Hz: -7
    49Hz: -7
    46Hz: -7
    43Hz: -8
    40Hz: -12
    38Hz: -12
    35Hz: -16
    30Hz: -16
    26Hz-not registered
    24Hz-not registered
    22Hz-not registered
    21Hz-not registered
    20Hz-not registered


    The RABOS calulator must have some sorta glitch right now because when I press on submit, it takes me back to the starting page.

    Do any of these numbers make sense? Since I can't get the calulator to work at this time, I turned up the EQ to the max on the rear and treble on the receiver. Then, the bass drops down quick from (-2) at 43Hz to (-10) at 35Hz to(-16) at 30Hz and then unregistered.


    I am sure this will be too hard to follow, but I thought I'd chance posting it in case Tony or someone can offer any speculation or insight.
     
  20. Tony Genovese

    Tony Genovese Supporting Actor

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    John:
    Something seems definitely amiss. Seems like something is causing bass to be filtered from your signal. Did you set the receiver to 2-channel? Then, try running the left and right separately. You should not be getting such a steep rolloff below 43. I think you better try a new receiver [​IMG].
     

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