New turntable vs. new cd player. What will be the better upgrade? (1 Viewer)

[james e m]

I'm looking to upgrade one piece of equipment right now, my cd player or my turntable. Right now I have a SONY CDP-C265 cd player which was bought from Best Buy about 10 years ago and I have a SHARP RP-113 turntable which is about 17 years old. If I upgrade the cd player I will buy the Sony 222ES (since I can't buy the 555ES) and if I choose the turntable I would get a Technics SL-1200M3D. Which upgrade do you think would be the biggest improvement as far as sound quality?
Thanks...

 

[KeithH]

James, it's hard to say. I have not compared LPs on the Technics table to CDs and SACDs on the 'C222ES in any system, let alone yours. Now, you are bound to get opinions that LP is easily better than CD (I am not necessarily disagreeing with that notion). Some people also believe that LP beats SACD. LP vs. SACD is likely to spark a greater debate than LP vs. CD. In the end, you need to decide which format(s) is/are more important to you.

You need to answer some questions for yourself before making a decision. Do you currently play CDs or LPs more frequently? For the format that you use less frequently, do you use it less frequently because the component you have now is lacking or because you are perfectly happy with the other format? Would an upgrade for the less-used format change your use pattern? Similarly, of the components you currently have, which one is more in need of an upgrade? In other words, which one is currently serving you better? How many CDs do you have? How many LPs do you have? In short, which component do you feel you would get more use out of, a new CD player or a new turntable? Also, is SACD a major consideration?

Sorry for barraging you with questions, but the point is that you need to determine which upgrade will serve you better. A lot of people have told me that a quality vinyl set-up beats comparably priced CD and SACD players. However, I have resisted upgrading my turntable because my LP collection is small (ca. 150 LPs) and because vinyl is simply a lot of work (cleaning LPs, balancing the turntable and tonearm, replacing the cartridge, buying a phono pre-amp, etc.). While I'm sure a good turntable would perform well in my main system, I don't think I would get as much use out of one. As a result, I have stuck with digital and am very happy. Maybe it would be different for you.

 

[KeithH]

James, there is one more reason I have resisted buying a turntable. On the one hand, I said that I probably would not get as much use out of one when compared to my CD and SACD players. On the other hand, I might feel compelled to start buying loads of LPs if I had a quality table. At this point, I am more interested in putting my money towards CDs and SACDs. I don't want to add LPs to the mix.

 

[Mark All]

James,
I'm not sure if you were referring to the Sony SCD-C222ES, a five disc carousel changer that plays SACD (not DVD)? Crutchfield shows them at $499 (down from $799) coming in at the end of March. If you were thinking of that model, I'd go for it if you want to add SACD to your life. I agree with Keith on the relative cost of vinyl. It's almost like a separate hobby to itself. I guess what it should come down to is how many LPs you have now and what condition they are in. What I've found myself since adding a new turntable to my system is that I listen to LPs and SACDs at home and CDs and MP3s everywhere else. If you haven't heard SACD in your system, I think it's the best way to go right now. By the way, why Technics? I like their 1200 model because it's strong, durable, and looks good, but there are better musical alternatives at about the same price range.

 

[KeithH]

Mark, the condition of one's LPs is an excellent point. If I had old, scratchy LPs, I would certainly be less inclined to buy an expensive turntable.

 

[Jerome Grate]

Some believe that LP sounds richer, has much more stereo seperation and more uncompressed natural sound. Like myself I haven't done any comparison between CD and LP so I can only go by the statements that recording on LP sounds superior than CD. I can understand how scratches can destroy the sound but there's nothing like listening to a new album just opened, and using LP brush to get that dust off and playing it. Takes me back. I have close to 1000 LPs and until I set up the new room that will have a turntable in it, I have to suffer.

 

[james e m]

Thanks for the advice guys. Eventually I plan on upgrading both so I am kind of looking at my system to figure out which is the weaker link, the cd player or the turntable. I'm hesitant on buying the 222ES because I have been patiently waiting for a replacement for the 555ES to come out, but I don't know if there will be a replacement. The reasoning behind getting the Technics is simple, I want to be able to switch from 45rpm to 33rpm without having to switch the belt. To tell you the truth I really wanted to find a Music Hall or a Rega with this feature but I couldn't find one.
James

 

[Tom Grooms]

Switching the belt if all a part of the vinyl experience. Look for a used XA777ES and a Rega P25. That should hold off your need for an upgrade for some time. I'm not sure we will ever see another Audio only SACD player from Sony.

 

[Mark Leitch]

James... if you are really going to upgrade both... I would upgrade the table first. The primary reasons are:

o there are so many nice tables out there for sale (used). Note many will let you change speed without changing the belt. Waiting will not buy you much.

o every day you wait on digital gear, your choices get better. Even buying behind the curve (i.e. used) and having the player mod'ed may be a good choice.

M.

 

[LanceJ]

James: Get the turntable (and I'm not just saying this because I like dvd-audio more than sacd). Neither digital hi-res format has nearly as many titles available as vinyl does.

And personally speaking, this myth about vinyl being a "difficult" format is just cow doodoo! Until my TT was broken in an unfortunate college accident, all I did to keep my records 99% click & pop free was to use a Discwasher brush + two drops Discwasher cleaner fluid--that's it. And I would always check the stylus for dust balls & use a separate stylus brush to remove it (don't use your finger--oils can get on there & attract more dust, not to mention possibly damaging the stylus). Cartridge alignment & tonearm settings? You set these things once. Analog audiophiles keep circulating this stuff about how mystical and tempermental vinyl is--phooey! It isn't.

Sorry, changing belt position isn't anything fun--it's just a hassle. :frowning:

And many of those basic audiophile TT seem to have no speed adjustment control (or at least it's not visible). Either way, you'll want this feature (or within easy reach). Luckily my old TT had a strobe & pitch control on top because every day the AC voltage varies according to changing loads (your air conditioner, dryer, fridge & overall neighborhood loads, etc) and the platter speed will have to be corrected. If you do get that Technics SL-1200 this is a non-issue: it has a quartz-controlled electronic speed control that maintains correct speed automatically. Most better mid-fi tables from the 80's had this feature.

I've said this before but: make choosing the right CARTRIDGE you first priority after picking out the TT. The cart has much more to do with the final sound quality than the TT. And make sure you use the right specification interconnects with whatever cart you get; the cart manufacturer will list this somewhere (this is the only time I am a believer in cables making an audible difference).

BTW: A Guitar Center employee said Technics is coming out with a "MkIV" version of the SL-1200. This seems to explain Guitar Center's (as of last Wednesday anyway) price of just $399 for their MkIII tables.

Vinyl can sound very good, with a minimum of fuss. And more and more modern artists are putting their music on those "black pizzas". With some of their stuff (remixes especially) it's only available on vinyl. And then there is all those records being sold at garage sales for fifty cents apiece, or sometimes they just give it away(!).

And on a shallow note, a nice TT just plain looks cool sitting in your living room.

LJ

 

[Mark All]

Oops. Sorry James, I forgot you'd asked the 45 rpm switching question before. It's actually quite easy to switch speeds on the MMF-7 though since the motor and pully sit apart from the plinth.

Jerome--you NEED to set up your room. You can feel it. A thousand LPs are calling out to you. Do it now, do it now, do it now...

Lance--$399 for the Technics is a great price. I completely agree about the overblown idea that vinyl is temperamental. It took me about an hour to set up my MMF-7 and then only because I wanted to take my time and do it right first time. No adjustments necessary afterwards at all and the cartridge came mounted and correctly aligned out of the box. You may want to tell us some more about the college accident. I almost lost a piece of equipment that had beer spilled in it during a party. Miraculously, after two weeks of drying out it started working again and still works after 15 years.

 

[KeithH]

I don't mean to say that playing LPs is an all-out arduous initiative, but even the least amount of work that one might do to play an LP (clean with fluid and check the cartridge for dust) is more work than is involved in playing a digital disc. When you are conditioned to grabbing a digital disc, throwing it in the player, and merely pressing "Play", any amount of work that delays the playing an LP (and delays the music) can be an annoyance. I rarely use my turntable because doing so is just not convenient. Besides the aforementioned pre-play delays, I honestly hate having to jump out of my seat to lift the tonearm at the end of an LP. Now, I do not feel disdain for the LP, as it is a great-sounding format, but it is just not a convenient format. I guess that's just me.

 

[Jerome Grate]

Jerome--you NEED to set up your room. You can feel it. A thousand LPs are calling out to you. Do it now, do it
now, do it now...

I know I got my discwasher ready and I dying to get them out and play, play, play. I have the technics MK1200 one solid turntable, hasn't been used for quite some time now.

 

[KeithH]

Despite my complaints about playing LPs, this thread gave me the impetus to drag out my Fleetwood Mac Rumours LP last night. It sounded good, but not as good as the DVD-Audio disc.

 

[LanceJ]

Mark: The college accident wasn't exactly an "accident" :b. My TT's headshell had a short in it and the left channel would intermittently stop working until I pushed on it in a very specific manner.

Wellllll, during a really really unpleasant argument with my girlfriend (at that time) during finals she told me to stop fussing with that g****mn record player. So I said "O.K. I'll stop" and I kind of used my fist to "fix" the short : afterwards, the P-mount headshell was no longer connected to the tonearm. Not one of my better moments I'm sorry to say. :frowning: :frowning:

I still have the table, a Technics SL-D20 direct drive with manual pitch control since I couldn't afford the quartz-locked model. My upcoming tax return could allow me to buy a SL-1200 TT with a decent cart, but also am tempted to buy a DVD-XP50 dvd-audio player before Panasonic stops making them. I don't own a center channel yet, and really can't use a subwoofer in this apartment. But I'm thinking about using the dvd-a player as strictly a stereo source. But then there are waaaaaay more records available then dvd-audios so I'm all confused right now!! But my car is also making this weird, deep sounding knocking sound right now--my buddy says it sounds like bad connecting rods (basically, the engine could go in the next 6months or so). If that happens.........

But I AM getting this (if you've never seen this series & you're into science and cultural things, go rent it if possible! It's very good & is $120 at Barnes and Noble): http://www.carlsagan.com/revamp/cosm...e/dvd/dvd.html

Edit!: Another nerdy but cool gizmo I've wanted for years (the "C150-HD" model)and finally might get: http://www.celestron.com/c150.htm

LJ

 

[Mark All]

Keith,
I agree with your assessment of the vinyl and DVD-A versions of Rumours. Warner did a super job when they remastered and remixed Rumours. You've touched on the main frustration I have with the industry right now--the slowless of getting titles released in high-resolution formats. I'd take SACD and DVD-A over vinyl or CD if I had the choice, but we don't have that choice for the vast majority of music right now. :frowning:

But, I'd still recommend an SACD player over a turntable for anyone who doesn't have a good stock of old LPs.

Lance,
You've just provided more evidence that wives/girlfriends, with some exceptions, don't mix well with the A/V hobby.

 

[Edin]

James, I highly recommend the Technics SL-1200. A month ago I bought a SL-1200M3D because I collect 12" versions of songs of the 80's. The only format available for a lot of these titles are vinyl 12"s. I agree with the other posts in the following points if you plan to buy a turntable:

- The sound of a vinyl is much richer.
- The final sound quality depends of the condition of the vinyl, so, if your collection of vinyls is in mint condition buy a good turntable, if not, I don't justify a expensive equipment.
- A good turntable needs to be paired with a good cartridge.

I have a Pioneer Elite DVD Audio-Video player, also plays SACD, CD's and MP3 Discs, I reaally like the sound of The Eagles on my Hotel California's DVD-Audio, but in the other hand I love my collection of vinyls.

 

[RobWil]

Oh the beautiful turntable.....mine has been collecting dust for 20+ yrs. It was purchased in around 1978...a Dual 704 Electronic Direct Drive semi-automatic. I wonder if anyone else has one of these. Imagine my surprise whan I recently hooked it up and it worked flawlessly...adjustable speed via the strobe light and dial...original stylus...man it sounded good and brought back many, many memories. I'd vote for the turntable...you can always get a CD player!

 

[Tom Moran]

"which sounds better"...it is completely subjective.

The only advice I will offer is that you should remember that the Technics 1200 has for quite some time been a turntable designed for DJ's Vs. a turntable designed for home listening.

While built like a tank the 1200 is not meant to be an "audiophile" type of component, it is a workhorse. You might get better value from a similarly priced table with better isolation between the motor and the platter.

The 1200 is designed to travel, to isolate the entire table from the bass vibrations of a club and allow for accurate pitch shifts and scratching, which are all features that are pretty useless for the average guy with a stack of LP's from the 70's and 80's.

Having said all that I have a 1200 as my main table because I used it to DJ. I still use it to make mix tapes and to listen to LP's and the sound and build quality are first rate. I'm just suggesting that it might not be the best value for the average home user...especially if you can buy a used high-end table from an audiophile who is "upgrading" to the new optical disc formats.

 

[Edin]

Tom, I agree with you, the 1200 was designed for DJ's, a turntable for battle, bringing a rugged costruction. I recommend this turntable because I read about this as a option for James. I know there are other brands and models but I don't know their current prices.

Do you remember the ¿Nakamichi? turntables costing thousand dollars in the 80's?

The matter of sound definitely is subjective. My english is not good and I don't know the equivalent of this phrase, but I think I translate correctly: "in tastes sorts are broken... in prices pockets"

Tom, Let me ask you something. What genre of music you prefer? What cartridge haves your 1200?