New Joss Whedon show announced: Dollhouse (1 Viewer)

[ScottH]

I'm not a Trekkie, and had no idea what that reference was, but didn't care and moved on. I don't think anyone should have to "explain" some obscure reference. It's more fun to the people that get it without the explanation.

As for the episode, it was okay I guess, but nothing special. The idea to temporarily give these dolls their original minds (minus their memories) back and let them out into the wild seemed beyond absurd (and extremely risky).

 

[Mikah Cerucco]

The way the show is set up, just about anyone could be. After all, most off what we've seen is from Echo's "group". There are other groups there. And I don't think they have to "return to base" regularly. Rather, I think they do that between engagements. So sure ex-fbi guy could be a doll. But I think there will be a dramatic price to pay if he is. I can't see any purpose for him to be a doll.

 

[Inspector Hammer!]

I also thought it was a risky move to give them back their minds and let them walk out.

The way they should have done it is to sedate them in the chair right after implantation, drop them off outside the Dollhouse in different locations so that when they wake up they would still pursue their unfinished business with no knowledge of the Dollhouse at all.

After that they fall asleep, Dollhouse picks them up and takes them back for their "treatments".

 

[Hanson]

It's too bad the Dollhouse doesn't have a holodeck to do this in. Sooo much safer.

Unless you disable the safety protocols.

 

[Nick Martin]

Wait, "Holodeck"?

What is this obscure reference to a sci-fi staple you mention?

I know of "Holosuites", but decks? What is this?

 

[Charlie Campisi]

LOL Hanson. I'm with Holodam as I also had no idea what the reference was and didn't check the link, but I did get the holodeck one. Give me one out of two points.

I think this episode illustrated the fundamental flaw I have with this series - the mini arcs of each episode are prevented from being interesting because of the basic concept of the show that the dolls are wiped between each engagement. Because of that, it is impossible for the viewer to see an advancement in the characters of the dolls without resorting to a glitch of some sort. And if the writers try to find a way to come up with a glitch or a test each week so that the dolls stop being dolls for a moment, the premise starts to get unbelievable that the dollhouse is this all knowing, all powerful villain. They begin to look like a bunch of idiots. I'm not sure how you fix it and keep Echo, Sierra, and Victor as central characters. This series needs a major directional change IMO because the basic premise and episode formula does not have the legs to maintain interest for more than a season, if that.

 

[ScottH]

I tend to agree with this. I actually pretty much can't watch any show that isn't serialized in some way, and so I'm having a hard time with this. And it also explains why my favorite part of the show is the stuff involving the FBI dude.

 

[John_Lee]

 

[JediFonger]

Holodeck - Memory Alpha, the Star Trek Wiki

1st appeared in TNG. then it came to DS9, quark's bar started to reference it as a holosuite. probably more 'premium' than holodeck. but they are 1 and the same. but of course:
Holosuite - Memory Alpha, the Star Trek Wiki
technically it is more than just the ship, it is everywhere.

still, they made that stuff up after starting to write holodeck's in DS9. basically it's all techno-babble

 

[Josh Dial]

That whooshing sound you hear is the joke, going over your head.

 

[Nick Martin]

Pretty much

I'm much more accustomed to 'suites' than 'decks'.

 

[Steve Y]

Upon reflection, I think that the premise to this show is probably fundamentally flawed. I still tune in, and enjoy the episodes while I'm watching, but on reflection it makes less and less sense. The last (eighth) episode was a little predictable, but was still better than the one before it, which had some great moments of humor, but was just clumsy and disappointing. (Unless the "Caroline" from last week was another doll -- which would be ridiculous -- she's even less interesting than a post-wipe Echo.)

I agree that the basic "mind control / mind wipe" idea makes it much harder to anchor your emotions to any character or situation... especially when your only developing characters are too enigmatic, or just not likable. It's too easy just to pull a switcheroo.

I'd be surprised if this show got picked up, unless some new suits at Fox have some kind of preternatural (and new-found) desire to give an under-performing Joss Whedon show another chance.

 

[Will_B]

I don't think there's a flaw. The characters are wiped after each assignment, and if that actually worked, then yes, there would be a flaw in that viewers would not attach to the characters. But since the show's narrative is explicit in showing that the wiping does NOT work as it is supposed to, there is no flaw in the story concept. As a viewer, you are supposed to be rooting for each subtle trace of awareness that the dolls retain. Echo shows the most signs of awareness, but this has been followed by Victor & Sierra.

And the Fox suits certainly owe that much.

 

[mattCR]

I think the thing that keeps Fox suits considering dollhouse is this: (1) It's a relatively cheap show to produce; (2) They get a back-end piece of the DVD sales, and so far, pre-order interest has been high. Fox recognizes while Firefly never went anywhere on their network, it's worth as a profit-center out of production has been pretty solid, with DVD, BluRay, figurines, etc. all cashing in. Fox has a deal on Dollhouse to get a nice bit of all of that. So, if there is even a shot it could become that, they are interested. (3) The Live+3 DVR numbers have been decent.. a large rise counting DVR, which may tell fox this is a show that can't survive on Friday, but might find an audience.

I think the trick is that Dollhouse has to pull some 1.6's down the stretch; but if it does, it's got a 50-50 in my mind of a mini-pickup (13 episode season type).. As long as Fox feels it could cash in and make money on the thing, it'll get consideration. Because very few networks have product that is a merchandising machine.... when was the last time you heard of someone casting multiple box sets of Ugly Betty? Or Figurines, posters, etc. out of Prison Break?

That's one of the things that locks Heroes in, no matter how much it's ratings suck.. it's ancillary revenues float the boat.

 

[Josh Dial]

However, the latest episode flatly stated that the reason the dolls weren't being fully wiped is because they needed "closure" on something. That was the entire point of the episode-they selected the problem dolls and then allowed them to do what they each needed to do in order to become true blank slates.

If the show goes back on this, and reveals that the dolls are indeed retaining memories from wipe to wipe, despite the closure, then the show is, quite plainly, lying to the viewers. Allowing the audience to pick up on clues and whatnot, and then telling them those aren't really clues, but something else, and then saying at a later date that "yeah, those really *were* clues to the meta-story" is just stupid.

Either the dolls are retaining memories, or they aren't. Pick one, and quit trying to fabricate a facade of mystery if there isn't one.

 

[mattCR]

Josh-

I think you're being too complex The dollhouse has an "idea" why they may be retaining memory, but it's not a certainty, it's a theory. Even those in charge of the dollhouse aren't sure that the technology is 100%. So, when asked why problems happened, the Doctor - Amy Acker's character - said her theory was that some of the dolls needed closure. And they would test this theory only on those who were showing the most open signs of retaining memory.

They then let them loose, and once a certain moment in their brain was achieved, a chemical would react and knock them out.

If the Doctor is right, then now they go back to being compliant blank states, and they can be wiped over and over again. If she's wrong, then memory retention is still a possibility.. or maybe there is something else they are missing entirely that is causing them to retain memories.

 

[Josh Dial]

I fully understand the plot of the episode.

My point is that *clearly* the audience is supposed to think/hope the dolls are retaining something from wipe to wipe. However, the show also then shows that it might be nothing more than a past event needing closure. *Clearly* this episode was meant to give the whole thing an "are they retaining, or aren't then?" vibe, but, to me, it's just jerking around to reinforce the notion that there's "something mysterious going on here."

One of the show's conceits was the chance that a doll/dolls were slipping out of control. I find no need to devote entire episodes to restating it.

 

[Will_B]

Too bad for you then, because that's not just the idea for a couple episodes, that's the entire long arc of the series. When is a doll not a doll.

 

[Steve Y]

I have to agree with you here, Josh. My fear is that they're making up the science-fiction "brain control" rules as they go along. An audience wants to be jerked around, but only after it has its feet on a consistent set of rules. And our protagonists (the dolls) do not have an inch of solid ground, nor does the fantasy technology behind the Dollhouse. Even if we get glimpses of personality - "Victor likes Sierra; Victor likes baseball; Echo feels something isn't right; Mellie had a daughter" ... it's still not quite "character" yet - it's not enough to hold an actor together. Worst of all, Caroline is the least interesting personality of the bunch (so far).

I actually thought the ending to last week's show was incredibly strong, emotionally speaking (I knew the fate of Mellie's daughter the second she saw the stroller, but her collapse in the churchyard was still effective). But the whole "let's activate the 'closure center' of the brain plot just made less and less sense the more I thought about it. "I know! next week let's fiddle with the "love cluster" in the brain and see what madness ensues!

Keep in mind I was also sure that Paul Ballard was going to be revealed as the rogue, or a doll himself, but that hasn't happened yet, and it gives me hope for his arc. Like some of you, I find his segments are increasingly becoming my favorite; he retains his personality (and what he has learned) from plot to plot. The more I think about it, the more it seems his character was created BECAUSE they anticipated the problems of having protagonists with limited personality or growth potential.

 

[Josh Dial]

That is EXACTLY my point. It's quite clearly the idea for the entire series. Hence, an episode that says basically "hey, you know that plot that is clearly the show's central story arc? Well that might not be it!" is just lame.