New Austin Thread (1 Viewer)

[Jonathan DA]

I am putting together my new system by determining the best engineering, build quality, and feature set available within my price range. The practice of listening to components at stores to decide how they'll sound in your system is fundamentally flawed. How many times have you gone shopping for a specific component, say a preamp as I am shopping for now, and been able to listen to every preamp in the same store with the same system? 99% of the time you have to go to different stores and listen to different preamps in different rooms on different days. There is NO WAY you can actually tell if the preamp is affecting the sound with that many variables involved. Heck, whether or not you're feeling pressured by the salesman at the time will affect how you perceive the sound. Now sometimes you can take a couple of units home and audition them in your system under the same circumstances. However, in that case you're still gonna be swayed by things like how well one preamp looks next to your amplifier. For instance, I don't like black components; I automatically think they will sound harsh because of all the crap I've read about how Japanese mid-fi electronics with lots of negative feedback used to sound so horrible. And most Japanese mid-fi stuff is black. What gibberesh. I fight my own preconceived notions way too much. If you spent $230 on a power cable that is made from $10 worth of parts from Home Depot, you're gonna convince yourself it sounds better. For me it's double-blind all the way.
What? I'm off-topic? Sorry. I'll show up no matter what we do, just cuz it's fun to hang out and listen/watch.
Jonathan

 

[Scott Oliver]

So why does this need to double blind test not apply to projectors?

Anyhow, I plan on contacting Brian Kurtz of Sound Mind Audio this week and hopefully he will agree to bring some amps (YBA, Rogue Audio, McCormack) over to my place for a demo on either May 4th or 11th preferably. Those of you willing to sit through an amp comparison done under non-Double Blind Testing conditions feel free to join me.

I will post again as soon as I have confirmation.

If the group as a whole decides to do a projector shoot-out somewhere else, then that is cool with me, but I will still be putting this in-home demo together, and the offer to join me will still be on the table.

Scott

 

[Hank Frankenberg]

Brian, my daughter and a friend drove from Austin to the Florida panhandle coast in about 8 1/2 hours I believe. Man, you've got to be motivated to do that.

Okay, comparison testing at Scott's and projector shootout somewhere else - probably at a home with a screen, correct? - unless someone hauls a screen. Volunteers?

Time to vote on a date? If so, mine's in for the 11th.

Input?

 

[Jonathan DA]

Double blind testing does apply to video projectors, it's just much easier to set up a blind test with video sources than it is with audio sources. Multiple people can observe the same image at once, and you can even have more than one video source operating at once as long you ensure they don't interfere with each other. Makes the comparisons much quicker.
Jonathan

 

[Scott Oliver]

Hank should be posting soon to confirm this if not before.
He and I have talked on the phone and come up with the next meet to be held on May 11th at Hank's place.
Hank has Danny Ritchie coming down to pick some newly finished and designed GR Research tower speakers that Hank can tell you all about. Anyhow he would like to hear these before Danny takes them back, he would also like to open his home for others to listen to them as well.
At the same time we can do a DIY room treatment lecture slash put one together step by step class for those interested in Hank's workshop. Jonathan this one will require some of your expertise to pull off, but hopefully you are willing since you came up with the idea. We threw out the idea of DIY Tube Traps and DIY Room Lens as possible candidates.
For my amp comparison at my place I am still going to try to get something set-up, but in order to do the comparison listening justice I will keep attendance small through private invites only. Of course my comparison will be set-up to not overlap the above.
If anyone wants to do a projector shoot-out lets go for it as well. Hank and I however do not have proper rooom set-ups for such a thing. Thus, this means someone else who can do such a meet must volunteer to host. Shout out to Colin, Greg, Nils or anyone else with the ability to host this. For this meet set whatever date fits your schedule just not the 11th please.
Scott
P.S. Just got a new CD yesterday and I am absolutely blown away by it. "Jazz at the Pawnshop" on First Impression Music XRCD. The sonics are top notch and the performance of course is legendary. It is difficult to not get up and dance while listening to it, a true test of good music. The CD set is pretty expensive, but worth every penny. www.elusivedisc.com carries it amongst a variety of other online stores, but thats where I got my copy for $49.99

 

[Hank Frankenberg]

Hi all - I was going to post first, but got tied up (work does get in the way of fun, doesn't it?). I offered my house to Scott because I have a large front room that is empty and an upstairs loft (no sidewalls with nasty reflections) since he is limited on space. As we talked, it evolved into him wanting a very small invitation only group for his amp comparison. That's understandable, since he is actuall "shopping". I am building the 6-ft tower line array cabinets for Danny Richie of GR Research and I suggested that if he wanted to attend the meet, he could bring down all the drivers (18 woofs and 16 ribbon tweets) and crossovers and we could install them at my house. My motivation here is NOT to promote GR Research or get sales for Danny but it IS for me to hear those towers after the many, many long hours I've been putting into them, and I may be a customer for his driver/crossover kit after I hear them. Scott and I discussed taking Jonathan's idea for room treatments and making that the theme of the part of the meet that would be at my house. If Jonathan will bring along some plans and get me a materials list in advance so I can do some pre-cutting of wood, we could assemble a couple of tube traps or side wall treatments (I defer to Johathan's recommendations here). Also, to clear a misunderstanding, the projector shootout should be on the same day. IOW, we're still talking about making this a two-house meet: one house (somebody volunteer, please) for the projector shoot-out and my house for the D-I-Y room treatment session. As a side note, Danny might bring down a Dodd tube preamp and a tube amp. He'll also bring some room treatment so we can compare or shamelessly steal ideas.

I hope I'm not appearing to take over this, but Scott really does want his amp comparison to be a small event and he doesn't have room for many people. Is it okay to continute the 2-house event? People can split the day between the two if desired.

Oh yes, Danny suggested we still do a power cord comparison as was suggested at the last meet. Anyone have any D-I-Y or botique power cords to volunteer?

Comments?

We really need someone to step up to the plate to host the projector part of this meet - it might be the highest atttendance part.

 

[Scott Oliver]

Oh sorry about the misunderstanding, Hank.
I didn't grasp a hold of having the projector meet on the same day, but that will work too. Of course we still have to have someone volunteer to host the projector shoot-out, whether that ends up being the 11th or another date is secondary.
As for me hosting I would love to share my system and house with the group, but after further thoughts along that line I realized; 1) a large group would not be fair to which ever dealer I get something set up with in terms of giving a good comparison demo, 2) even more important is that the Texas heat is starting to settle in and I don't have central AC, so too many bodies in the house at once would not be a good idea unless we cranked my listening room's AC which then well you get the idea.
So for a larger group I will have to hold off for the fall or winter if you can call it that.
Hank I have got nothing along the lines of aftermarket power cords although I am interested in investigating them.

 

[Jonathan DA]

I don't know if I'll be in town on the 11th, but if I am I can definitely help with the acoustics stuff. At any rate I can send Hank plans and a bill of materials. Can we get a count of how many people want to build room treatments and what kind? If you want bass traps I'll need to know what frequency you want them trap. In the case of absorbers, does anyone have objections to fibreglass? Certain types of fibreglass have superior absorption coeffecients to almost any commerical acoustic foam.
Jonathan

 

[Greg Risley]

Boy I take alittle break to rework my room and stop reading the boards and here you guys are going whole hog already. May 11th sounds good to me. I might be able to bring my NEC LT-150 projector where ever we have a shoot out, but I will have to do a little onsite calibration since I am using a FL-day filter that is permanetly mounted in the hushbox.

Also I have a Synergistic Research Master Reference Power cord the I would be glad to bring since I have had it in the box since I got rid of my tube amp 2 yeras ago. The silly thing is so stiff it won't fit behind my current equipment rack. So if anybody at the meet think its just what they need, I would be willing to part with it for a few pesos below market.

greg

 

[Frederick_Falk]

Well, I am available either date and the 11th would be great. I am very interested in sound treatments as I will be building a Home Theather room inside my two-car garage. I am also looking at buying a projector and would participate in another shoot-out if one is done. I would be willing to host the shoot-out EXCEPT the only place I could do it is in my garage and there is NO A/C so I don't think that will work.

If we did a shoot-out, how many different projectors could we come up with? Has anyone thought about doing a shoot-out somewhere other than a home? Does anyone have access to a large in-door room (with A/C) that could sit 20-30 people? Does anyone have a portable screen that could be used if we met somewhere other than a home?

I do have access to a portable screen.

Anybody else?

 

[Scott Oliver]

To further Fredrick's question about meeting somewhere other than a house.

Any apartment dweller's in the group, I've toured a newer apartment complex in the past that had a media room with theater style seating, but this was in Houston. Anyone live in an apartment with such amenities here?

Or another thought, I again don't have acess to this but what about neighborhood MUD buildings or the neighborhood association building, either of these if you live in their jurisdiction you should have free access to them with only a security deposit. And both could very possibly have a room with seating for 20 or so people.

Scott

 

[Greg Risley]

Great idea. Down here in my development we have such a place. I will check on it Friday and see what I can find out.

Greg

 

[Frederick_Falk]

So what's the deal? Are we having a meeting on the 11th or not? Greg? Colin? Scott? Nils? Anybody?
Ahhhh! I am going into withdrawal...:frowning:
Must have A/V fix.:b
Hey, Greg. If we can't get a projector shoot-out for the 11th, would you be interested in hosting a small get together and do "dinner and a movie" night? I would be willing to provide a dish for the dinner.

 

[Hank Frankenberg]

Well, I'm still planning on hosting the D-I-Y room treatments portion at my house on the 11th unless everyone votes for another date/venue. I'd like that portion to be earlier, about 1:00 - 5:00. We could meet close to my house to eat, maybe Serrano's on 620 or The Oasis, maybe at 11:30. Then the projector shootout could start somewhere about 6:00. Times are flexible. How about posting your preferences/votes everyone?

Keep in mind I've had two requests to do a power cord comparison - maybe not double blind, but a comparison anyway. Who has aftermarket or D-I-Y power cords?

Jonathan: if we do indeed do room treatments, how about sending me a design for sidewall units that you consider best and also doable by us D-I-Y'ers? That way, I can buy the wood in advance (my contribution) and maybe some of the rigid fiberglas if that's on your materials list. Maybe someone else could buy the fabric (burlap?) at a fabric store. OR, I'll buy everything and then folks could bring $20 or whatever you think for reimbursement. Let me know your thoughts.

 

[Scott Oliver]

I think since there is not too much action on this thread and no one yet has dissented to this, and at the very least I am backing your hosting of the DIY portion, then it is approved. Hank you ready for us!
Are those behemoth speakers still going to be set-up for the meet?
I think meeting for lunch would be good. Oasis or that other lizard lounge palce would both be cool to meet at. Got to love those views, but man they make you pay for them.
I guess for the projector shootout it is looking like its not going to happen.
Lastly, I may have a new powercord by then. Brian Kurtz of SoundMindAudio is coming over today with two amps.
Rogue Magnum 88 and the Air Tight ATM-2 $8000
Should be fun, but I promised him I would buy something whether it is a tweak or new cable to make the trip worth his while so possibly that could be a new power cord. I will talk to him about whether or not he would be willing to do some type of event with the HTF group in the future as well.

 

[Hank Frankenberg]

Okay, I'll put it on the calendar. The Oasis is very close, but the Iguana Grill is better IMHO, so whatever the consensus is...c'mon guys, vote now.
The behemoths will be there if they don't consume me first!
And hopefully we'll have a couple of power cords to "listen to". I'm a skeptic, but I do keep an open mind and if I can hear a difference, I'd consider making/buying an upgrade power cord.
Greg: I noticed you said you have a power cord to bring.
ATM-2? Hmmm...for $8000 you get a nice amp with built-in Automated Teller Machine? Very novel
I'm considering a Belchfire II with integral frozen marguerita dispenser
I wonder why no one is offering a projector shootout space. I don't think it needs to be huge. Maybe the reluctance is that no one has a high-end fixed screen. Is that really necessary? Colin's wall was good enough to show up differences in projectors.
Jonathan: would you please give me a call or send me an e-mail?

 

[Frederick_Falk]

Boy, I was getting worried there!
Hank, you can count me in and my vote for lunch would be at the Iguana Grill.

Greg, what did you find out about the place in your development where you thought we might be able to do a projector shoot-out?
If we end up only doing Hank's place for the "regular" meeting, would anyone else be up to doing "dinner and a movie" at there place just to watch a cool flick on the "big Screen"?

 

[Nils Luehrmann]

Fredrick! Good to hear from you! So you decided to build the HT in the garage after all? Considering the alternatives, I think that is the best option. If you need any help or just want someone to bounce some ideas around just let me know.

As for the upcoming HTF meet - I have a lot of control over my schedule right now, so what ever the group decides is fine with me.

 

[Nils Luehrmann]

If anyone is interested in testing out the new Boxlight/Studio Experience Cinema 12SF (aka InFocus LS110 ScreenPlay) DLP projector, I can make arrangements to bring it to the meet.

As many of you know I have been testing out a huge array of projectors these last three years all the while searching for a unit that could meet my high expectations, but at a reasonable cost. This of course is why my search has lasted as long as it has! LOL

I have done consulting and executive coaching for several HT companies and thus have had a great opportunity to be exposed to just about every projector possible as well as the facilities to properly test them out.

Unfortunately, for the last couple years, the only units that impressed me where well over $10,000, and even with the ability to get them at cost, the price still did not seem reasonable.

Well I am happy to report that this year has been a totally different experience. I feel like a kid in a candy store. There are now several fine projectors that can be bought for about $5,000 that perform as well if not better than some of their earlier ancestors which back then may have cost as much as $15,000.

Of course this meant I had a much harder job - now instead of finding one unit, I had too many to choose from. I started with five DLP projectors and five LCD projectors:

DLPs:

4:3 XGA - Optoma H55

4:3 XGA - NEC LT150

DM SVGA - Seleco HT200DM

DM SVGA - PLUS HE-3100 "Piano"

DM SVGA - InFocus LS110 "ScreenPlay"

LCDs:

4:3 XGA - Sanyo PLC-XP21N

4:3 XGA - NEC MultiSync VT540

16:9 XGA - Sony VPL-VW10HT

16:9 XGA - Sanyo PLV-60HT

16:9 VGA - Panasonic PT-AE100

After the dust finally settled, I found my self embracing the LS110. While it is not without its weaknesses (as expected for any projector under the $5,000 mark, overall, for my application it became the obvious choice.

So what did I like the best?

1) The color reproduction is absolutely magnificent, and was easily the best of all these projectors. Using a Sencore CP-288 color analyzer I found that the grayscale was a tad cool, but was easily adjusted to D6500K.

2) NO RAINBOWS! Who ever says they see rainbows with this unit must be under the influence of an illegal substance. My wife and I are perhaps the most prone to seeing, and being bothered by, the infamous "rainbow" effect that plagued the early generation DLPs due to the poorly designed color wheels. This is simply not the case with this unit. It has the six segment four speed design, but they went one step further and removed the white section altogether. What ever the reason, the result is an absolutely spectacular image, with the one of the best color reproduction capabilities available today - and NO RAINBOWS!

3) Thanks to the built in Faroudja DCDi processor, this unit did the best job when displaying non progressive signals. With progressive signals, it naturally performed pretty much the same as the others.

4) Of the DLPs, this unit also outperformed the rest when displaying data and video from my lap top, as well as when I hooked up a Sony Play Station 2 and tried out a few hi-res games like Gran Turismo 3.

5) Input compatibility and flexibility is top notch! This projector is one of the first to have a DVI-HDCP input (recently announced as the adopted standard by the Studios and networks for displaying native HD material, and it is expected that HD-DVD will also adopt this standard). Without it, HD material will be scaled down to 480p. This unit also has an RS232 input as well as a monitor output for dual displays. A very clever added feature is the "Enhanced Connectivity Module" which is attached to the back of the projector and that has the full range of connectivity options. Then when you want to take your projector on the road, you don't have to disconnect all your inputs. All you have to do is press a button and the ECM just snaps off. This reveals a whole new set of inputs connected directly to the back of the projector for use on the road. In fact, you can even use the ECM as a video switcher, and install it in your equipment rack, then run a single M1-DA cable to the projector. No need to have separate long runs for DVI, HD15 VESA, Component, S-Video, and Composite running from your equipment rack to your projector - nor the need to buy a decent $1,000 video switcher!

6) Image and Aspect control is fantastic with this unit, as well as the other DM chip projectors. Basically you have two different chips, each also has four different ways of displaying the image (anamorphic widescreen, standard (4:3), Native (pass through), and letterbox widescreen (for NTSC widescreen material as found on some cable stations).

7) Screen size is VERY flexible, not only because of the various aspect controls, but also due its standard throw ratio and its 1.2 zoom lens. The result is a throw ratio that can vary from about 1.44-1.82! This makes it pretty easy to fit into any size HT room.

8) This unit has one of the best designed ceiling mounts I have ever come across! It is made by Peerless Industries out of Illinois and makes for mounting, adjusting, and removing this projector as easy a job as pealing a banana.

9) The picture is plenty bright, but if I insisted on having direct light in the room, I would want a projector with at least 2000 lumens and use a screen with less than .9 gain.

10) With a 2000 hr bulb life, replacement bulbs for this projector costing only $300, and power consumption of only 300 watts, meant for a very low hourly cost - just over $0.15

What I didn't like?

1) As is standard of all single chip DLPs, there is some noticeable dithering in gray material, especially in panning shots, but not so much as to deter the viewer from enjoying an otherwise splendid picture.

2) This unit also has quite a lot of light leakage. This is as a result of having the exhaust fan positioned along the front of the projector. Even so, I am sure they could have come up with a better design so as to minimize the light leakage. For the most part, it does not have a serious impact on the image and in some ways adds the kind of ambient lighting I actually prefer to have while watching most types of materials, but there are several remedies - many of which I have seen posted on AVS and I assume here as well, that have been shown to be able to cut out all, if not most of the erroneous light.

What is not great, but acceptable?

1) Typical of non-CRT projectors, there is about a 3" overspray of light around the projected image. This is not a problem for me, nor should it be for anyone because all projected images should be masked by at least a 6" black border in order to create a defined contrast to the picture itself - at least in my opinion they should.

2) While certainly not noisy, this unit is also not the quietest. I'd say it has a pretty average noise level, perhaps a little quieter than average, but I am very sensitive to the fan noise of all projectors, which is why when designing HT rooms I like to have the projector mounted from the ceiling and as close to the back wall as possible.

3) Contrast is good, but not great. Of these projectors, only the Optoma H55 showed a slightly better contrast, which was only noticeable in scenes that had very dark shadows. In that case, the H55 did show slightly better detail, but of course compared to a CRT-RPTV, all of these looked poor by comparison - but then again, try getting a RPTV with a 8' wide screen.... If they do end up making one, expect it to have about a 32 sqft foot print and weight about 800lbs - and cost about $50,000. So I better go back to comparing apples to apples. Point is, this unit has very nice blacks, better than almost all the other units in this group, but don't expect RPTV type black levels - the technology still isn't there within this price range.

So there it is, at least for me it became pretty clear that the LS110 was going to be my best choice. I also decided to get the rebadged version from Boxlight's Studio Experience division as its white casing had a greater WAF and the additional 3yr warranty at no additional cost was a big bonus. Not only that, but from what I have been told in the past, and from my own recent experience (which I'll share latter) I have found the customer service, and technical support at Boxlight to be far superior to most of the other projector companies, certainly better than InFocus.

Unfortunately that was one of the few manufacturers that I did not have a wholesale connection with, but I found the street prices to still be quite reasonable. If you are curious, while I wasn't able to get this projector at wholesale, I was able to get their dealer price list info. The dealer price for the 12SF is $3,600. I bought mine from a company in Arizona for $3,900. I didn't bother to haggle, as I figured $300 is a reasonable profit for a retailer to make on this type of sale, but I suppose you might be able to find it for less. Also, the ceiling mount (made by Peerless Industries in Illinois) - retails for $299, but the dealer cost is only $165. I was able to buy it from Boxlight for $200 and had them have Peerless drop ship it directly to me which meant I was able to get the mount right away. While I didn't opt for the 5 year extended warranty, it retails for $499, and the dealer cost is $299. I certainly don't plan on owning this projector for more than three years, and considering that projectors loose about 90% of their value after 5 years, it didn't seam like a worth while investment.

Now I am in the process of testing out various screen material. So far I am most pleased with the Parkland PLAS-TEX, but I am still waiting on a demo FireHawk screen from Stewart before I make my final decision. If anyone would like to try out some of these different screens, such as the PLAS-TEX, Black-Out fabric, and such - let me know. I'd like to see a screen made with "Screen Goo" from Goo Systems, but so far I haven't found anyone who has used, or has a screen with that "stuff" on it. If any of you have some other ideas regarding possible screen material - please let me know!

I hope my experience might help some of you, and of course I am always available if any of you want to check out my projector or any of my HT stuff.

I'm looking forward to seeing many of you again (and some of the new faces in Austin) at the next meet. Again, I'm sorry I "disappeared" for so long, and while I am sure being a new father will also occupy most of my time and energy, I do hope I will be able to one again get more involved with the various HT groups in Austin.

 

[Greg Risley]

Hey guys. Sorry I have been in and out of the state the past few days working on a new business venture. I finally got the number to the community center here in Shady Hollow and I dropped by to get a good look and this place is perfect for a shoot out. It is a room that is about 40' x 40' with only two glass doors for entry and exit and just small 2'x4' windows up near the ceiling that could easily be block out with some black poster baord. The walls are all white so at the least we could shoot onto the walls. I have two 6' long card tables that we could use and my father has offered to let me use his laptop which has a dvd-rom. I could check into getting a switcher but I would shy away from any low end spliters.

I will call and reserve the facility tomorow. There is a $75 cleaning deposit, which is no big deal since I know you guys are not pigs (like most of my releatives). Besides I am aware of Frederick's secret love of house cleaning.

I will post when everything is firm tomorow.

Later

Greg