need some advice about subwoofers (1 Viewer)

[davefrmsaltlake]

I have a htib setup that I've been fairly happy with so far with one exception....the subwoofer. It does pretty well but I think I'm looking for more from a subwoofer than it can provide. It's a passive subwoofer connected by + - cables receiving all its power from the htib receiver. I was thinking that I might be able to add 2 powered subwoofers as long as I could be sure they wouldn't kill my htib receiver. The powered subwoofers I was looking at were klipsch reference rw-12d and I would need to connect them via the + - terminals. So I figure that my receiver is a 3ohms receiver and the klipsch subs are 8ohm...so if I put 2 of them on that line it should drop that resistance down to 4ohms so would help having 2 of them as far as resistance is concerned...but what I'm not sure about is on the subwoofer side. I realize the klipsch are powered from their own amp but by connecting them via + - terminals..there is still signal being sent and is power being drawn off of the receiver. At least that's what common sense is telling me. Is this correct?...or what advice or option do I have with doing this? The htib I have is samsung htd-6730w..no preouts or line outs for sub just a + - Here is a link for the klipsch sub...http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882780078 ...and here is a link for the htib http://www.samsung.com/us/video/home-theater/HT-D6730W/ZA

 

[schan1269]

Big problem with doing this...
Your HTiB uses a PMPO meaningless power rating. I doubt this thing musters up 15 watts to the subwoofer terminals.
That 15 watts is more than likely "throwing a hot dog down a hallway"...
It will work...though...
Just don't expect much improvement, cause there is very little to work with.

 

[davefrmsaltlake]

I'm not all that familiar with the technicals but in the manual it lists for amplifier output....front speaker 165w x2.....front top at 165w x2...center channel170w...surround speaker 165w x2.....subwoofer speaker output 170w all at 3 ohms on impedence....then it goes on to say rated inputs/outputs and it lists the sub at 170w input and 340 watt output..the 2 rears have their own wireless power supply. How do I determine if this will give me an improvement and or do these figure help with understanding what I have better or do they make no difference?

 

[schan1269]

I'm not downloading the manual for this thing, but...
The ENTIRE thing weighs 60lbs. A 5x200 watt Sunfire amp weighs enough you darn near need a forklift involved.
Look at the back and find out what it "chews off the wall". I'll be generous and say this thing only uses 50 watts of that amount for the video and "networking"...
Take the "rest" and divide by 5(the two fronts, center and the "6 and 7" fake channels). I bet you come up with 15 watts.
Take the "rear" amp and do the same. Find out its amp/watt draw and divide that by two. Again, we'll be generous and "assume all of it is powering the speakers".
I have yet to see a "one piece" HTiB have more than 20wpc. Ergo, the PMPO 3ohm measurement is meaningless.
We used to, back in the day(late 80s, early 90s) have a saying about "bogus power ratings"...
"Yeah this thing has gobs of ILS power."
The in-joke is, ILS means If Lightning Strikes.

 

[davefrmsaltlake]

on the htib receiver/bluray unit it lists general power consumption at 70w and on the wireless rears unit it lists that at 50 watts..but I thought by using the + - wires to go from the receiver to the klipsch subs it wouldn't matter so much about the amplification...it was more just using the + - wiring to get the signal to the klipsch subs (because of no lfe out etc) and the subs would provide the amount of amplification needed from their own built in amps etc. Is this incorrect? I just wanted to make sure if it did this it wouldn't hurt the htib receiver because hooking up the + - would cause a draw (I assume) even though they have their own amplification because they wouldn't be connected with a line input but with the + -

 

[Robert_J]

The impedance of the Klipsch doesn't matter since you aren't connecting the speaker to the HTiB, you are connecting the sub amp via the high level input. The resistance is in the hundreds or even thousands of ohms.
This option will work and should give you some improvement but it is still not a perfect solution. Going to speaker level and back down and then amplifying it again will induce a lot of distortion to the signal. But hey, it's an HTiB you are starting with.
Any reason you chose Klipsch as your new sub? There are dozens of internet direct options that can match the Klipsch for less or beat it in the dirt for a little more. Think of it as your first upgrade. It will be a sub that will follow you for years no matter what the rest of the system consists of.

 

[davefrmsaltlake]

Ok, the reason I was assuming it would have a draw on the htib was because the orig htib sub is powered through the + - wires that come off the back of the htib receiver. So I was assuming that because I had power coming from there I needed to be careful about hooking up those 2 klipsch subs via + - because I thought it would put a draw on the htib because it wasn't a line input but was the + - where my other sub was drawing power from....and i know the klipsch have their own amp but just wanted to ensure that hooking up both of those klipsch wouldn't damage my current stuff. The reason I have been looking at the 2 klipsch subs is because I have already made a swap out of the samsung center with a klipsch rc-42 reference and have ben very happy with it...so was looking at 2 klipsch subs from the same reference series..and could be the beginning steps to me replacing speakers out and then finally a new receiver etc. What direct subs/speakers did you have in mind from what you were suggesting in your comment robert?

 

[schan1269]

He means Lava, HSU and the recently departed E.D. (Lots of people still don't know Elemental Designs ceased operations last month...apparently)
The RC 42, good speaker...to give you an idea of why it sounds better than the HTiB center you had...
IT is all about efficiency.
Somewhere in the owners manual it mentioned an efficiency rating of the speakers. I'm going to guess something along 77-81db. The Klipsch is 95db.
So, to achieve the same volume the RC 42 achieves...off 1 watt(roughly), the included center needed...
32 watts. (I was generous and used the 81db)
I've seen efficiency(er, inefficiency???) ratings on these "throw away" HTiB as low as 75db. If the efficiency rating of the speakers is 77...then the center it came with would have needed 70-ish watts...
Every 3db increase in volume is a doubling of power....so a "3db less efficient speaker" needs double the power.

 

[Robert_J]

I haven't checked the eD site in a quite a while. After Ben left, I'm surprised it didn't happen sooner. Lava has had some quality issues so I stopped recommending them also.
Hsu Research, Epik Subwoofers, SVS Sound, Rythmik Audio and a few others are always high on my list. Your sub doesn't have to match your speakers. In fact, few speaker companies make good subs. But there are some sub companies like SVS that added great speakers later. Buying two average sounding subs just means you have louder, average sounding bass. Buying one quality sub is better. It can both get loud and sound great doing so.
Finally, when you connect via the high level inputs on the sub, the HTiB amp sees so much resistance, it is only putting out a watt or 2 at most from the sub output. That keeps distortion low but it is still higher than using a pre-amp level output like on most receivers.

 

[davefrmsaltlake]

Thanks for the great responses. The room I'm putting this equipment in is around 12 1/2 by 14 ft..so isn't a big room at all. The subwoofer that came with the htib does a decent job in the room I thought. I just wanna feel more bass..have more of that I'm in the movie feeling. If you have some ideas for a sub that could replace my current one and would save me money...please link them. Those 2 klipsch subs would run me about 600 or so for both but if I can get better performance from a single good quailty sub then please advise as to which ones I should be looking at based off what I've described. I have a projector screen setup up for this and the center I currently have sitting on the floor angled up to ear level. The towers I have are sitting on the sides of the screen and they have both the front l/r and the vertical surround speakers. The wireless rears are in the back. Part of the reason I first decided to go with this system was because of the size. It all fit well within the room. Also if I go with a single sub should I be concerned about resistance considering the htib is a 3ohm and sub would likely be an 8. the rc42 (8ohm) I have been using as the center has been doing well considering resistance etc but if I add a 8ohm sub should I be more concerned because it's adding more resistance? This is part of the reason i was thinking of adding those klipsch subs was because I thought adding 2 would drop the resistance from 8ohm to 4 which was close enough to 3 and give me another place to put a sub for increased lfe

 

[Robert_J]

Also if I go with a single sub should I be concerned about resistance considering the htib is a 3ohm and sub would likely be an 8.

No. Like I said, the new sub's high level inputs will be a few hundred ohms to a few thousand ohms. Your HTiB will have no issues driving it. Your HTiB will never "see" the actual impedance of the driver, only the resistance of the amp.
$500 plus shipping from Chicago for an Epik Legend - http://epiksubwoofers.com/legend.html
$612 shipped from California for a Hsu VTF-2 MKIV - http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-2mk4.html
$550 plus shipping from Texas for a Rythmik FV12 - http://rythmikaudio.com/FV12.html
I added the state because if you reside in that state they may charge you sales tax.
If you are handy with tools, you can spend the same budget and get a much better result than anything I have linked to. All you have to do is build the box.

 

[davefrmsaltlake]

After looking over those 3, the epik one seems like the one that I will give a try. The way they talk it up on the site makes it sound amazing. Should I just be considering one of those or should I still be looking at getting 2?...or should I just look at getting the empire one from epik..although I wonder if that is to much for my room

 

[schan1269]

I'd stick with one sub. The idea of "too much speaker" does not compute(kidding)...
They have a volume knob...

 

[Robert_J]

If you can up your budget for the Empire, that's what I would do. Peaks in action movies can stress a sub and cause distortion. While a 12" sub can be pushed to it's limits, a 15" can still be loafing along at 1/2 its potential. The less you stress a sub, the less distortion you put into your low end.

 

[davefrmsaltlake]

Thanks Sam, and thanks for the info on benefits of the empire compared to the legend Robert. I can't fully tell from the pics of them but do they have one set of + - to plug into or 2 sets because they have 2 subs?

 

[Robert_J]

I can't fully tell from the pics of them but do they have one set of + - to plug into or 2 sets because they have 2 subs?

One amp so one set of inputs. The single amp powers 2 drivers.

 

[davefrmsaltlake]

Thanks, eventually when I get around to replacing the front speakers and the rear surround and receiver etc. What do you guys suggest?....nothing to over the top because I have a small space...cost isn't as big of an issue as size.

 

[schan1269]

Marantz slim-line, if size is an issue.
http://www.amazon.com/Marantz-NR1403-Slim-Line-Receiver/dp/B0081N916M/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1346696702&sr=1-1&keywords=marantz+slimline+receiver
Don't be fooled either. That 50x5 trumps your 1000(whatever it is) watts like the Marantz is packing a Royal Flush and the your HTiB is holding a pair of 7s.
If you want 7.1, there is the NR160X version.

 

[davefrmsaltlake]

I'll take a peek at it. Size isn't an issue when it come to the avr but could be one for how big front l/r and the rears etc

 

[schan1269]

No problem, I took it to mean a small shelf for an AVR...