need more power (1 Viewer)

[bradhart]

I have a Sony 6.1 receiver/amp and it works fine for movies and CD's from my DVD player (I use the component video inputs and digital coax) and pretty much anything I pipe through the computer to it (I use the 5.1 inputs and component video inputs the computer). The sound is good but not great, I don't think I am getting the 100 watts per channel the receiver claimed or for that matter anywhere close to it. My room is 20x26 I have 3 way pioneer 15" in the front with cerwin vega center and and 10" sub. In the rear I have 2 pair of 12" Criterion VI speakers rated at 50 watts. These rears have a good sound but even turned up all the way I can barely feel the woofer moving. I half expect this in the front with the 15's since I use the crossover in my sub (I get a lot of bass action out of the sub). My question is would adding a second power amp at speaker level fix my problem with sound in the rear? (I have put different speakers including the 15's in the rear and still too little sound) If I can do that without damaging the equipment what would be a good inexpensive (inexpensive on ebay) amp to buy mind you I will need one for the surround and the surround back when i get around to making that little change.

My second thought is upgrading from my sony str de597 to a yamaha rx-n600


I don't have a lot of money to spend on this upgrade and I am going to be stuck with what ever decision I make for the next 2 years likely (I hurt my knee at work and know I will be off dicking around with them for the next two to three years)

 

[Brent_S]

First, how did you calibrate your system? You should use an SPL meter and test tones to get all speakers balanced to the same SPL.

I would guess you have some sort of bass management engaged in the receiver, which will reroute the frequencies below the crossover setting to your mains/sub depending on how you're configured. Additionally, I've never done any testing, but I would guess most DD/DTS soundtracks don't bother to put a lot of low frequency information into the surround channels...either use the LFE or front channels since most systems will use BM and/or the front channels for the redirected bass anyway.

Power wise, you need to double the wattage to get +3db SPL out of a given speaker. 3db is barely noticeable. Most surround receivers power ratings are really with one or two channels driven at a time, rarely is the rating for all 5/6/7 channels driven simultaneously. In reality, it doesn't matter since that's a condition that will almost never exist except in the lab.

-Brent

 

[JohnRice]

Yeah, my guess is the system isn't calibrated. You can't just hook everything up and let it go. Plus, there is no such thing as "adding a second power amp at speaker level". It doesn't work that way. You don't amplify the signal, then amplify it more if it isn't enough. Those big Pioneer and Cerwin Vega speakers are typically very sensitive, which is where you get "loud" from more than the amount of amp power. You need to set up the system, and all your problems should be cured.

 

[Brian Serene]

The best way to set-up your system is to set your receiver to crossover all of your speakers at 80Hz (if possible). Some older receivers crossed over at up to 100Hz. Even then, it is better to set all of your speakers to (Small), and use a subwoofer to handle the frequencies from 80Hz down.

People who own full range speakers are ususally better of crossing over their speakers at 80Hz.

Instead of spending your money on a new receiver or a power amp, you will get significantly improved results buying a much better subwoofer, such as the SVS PB-10 NSD.

 

[bradhart]

i don't think the sub is my problem it is a 10" jbl 150 watt, though if the auction I am watching goes my way I may move up to a 12" with 300 watt just because I can. After talking with several other people who own or owned my current receiver and seeing some pretty nasty reviews of it online and very few positive ones, and finding a really good deal on a much better receiver (yamaha htr 5960 for $126 delivered) I decided with my current input needs to go ahead an upgrade there.

I think this should fix most of my problems since the receiver/amp has good configurability options where the sony was pretty poor in that arena. I also have the added option of using separate amps on 7.1 pre-outs if I am still not getting the performance I want from the speakers.

 

[JohnRice]

Brad, you continue to ignore the most important feedback. The system has to be calibrated. If you don't do that properly, no matter of equipment you haphazardly throw at it will change anything, unless you just luck into a combination that by pure coincidence happens to be preset roughly right for your situation.

You're judging equipment by driver size and specs, which will lose out in the end almost every time.

 

[bradhart]

I am not ignoring the calibration issue, I will be able to do a much better job of that with the new receiver. My current sony receiver gives me crap for calibration choices, the most I can do with it is define size, volume, and distance of speakers which is already done. I have made the change to listing all of them as small speakers, and will there with the new receiver. Simply put what I can do with it has already been done and I am still not getting anything even my untrained ear is satisfied with.

edit the sony doesn't have volume control for individual speakers.

 

[JohnRice]

Brad, every surround receiver ever made has volume controls for individual speakers. The only possible exception is for the L/R speakers. ALL other channels MUST have individual volume controls, or the receiver is completely useless. You are missing something absolutely fundamental.

All that is absolutely required is size and volume, so that is not crap choices. You just aren't setting it up properly, a problem which will be the same regardless of what other equipment you throw at it.

 

[LanceJ]

I already see two very possible answers to your problem.

That's a pretty big room for such a small receiver....IF you like to listen really loud --> the kind of loudness that completely prevents normal conversation with someone next to you unless you shout. Otherwise I think it should do O.K. But while the Sony should be able to decently power the two big Pioneers (front mains right?) in stereo mode when crossed over at 80Hz, I'll bet in any multichannel mode - five extra speakers! - things slide downhill pretty quick if you ask it for really high volume levels.

BTW, I'm not familiar with those Criterion IV speakers but going by the 50 watt power rating and the sound of that brand name, they seem like they might be vintage speakers i.e. from the 1970s or early 80s, like these? Many speakers that old have parts in their crossover network (usually the capacitors) that have changed chemically and in turn reduce the amount of power reaching the woofer/tweeter/etc - this could also be affecting the sound levels in your room.

That 10" JBL has a good chance of struggling in that size of room. So just for kicks, you could program the receiver for "large" front mains to see if the Pioneers could help with the low bass, but this usually will only work in stereo mode......*unless* the receiver has an option that, during playback of SURROUND sources, lets it route the subwoofer channel (the .1 channel) to not just the sub, but also the front mains. IIRC some receivers call this their "LFE+main" option. Sometimes doing this will help, sometimes it will just muddy the bass or actually lessen it, but can't hurt to try.

And like others have mentioned, also in my experience the rear (and center) channels of a movie soundtrack don't usually contain the type of low bass frequencies that cause woofers to be very active, though most surround music is another matter. AND many movies just plain don't have active surround soundtracks and the rears pretty much sit idle i.e. chick flicks and 99.9% of movies made before 1977.

 

[bradhart]

Thanks Lance that is a lot more helpful than some have been. The power setup wasn't the only reason for switching receivers but a fairly good one. The Sony sounded pretty good when I got it about four years ago but I wasn't pushing big speakers and running them in a much smaller space (12x17). I will try switching the mains to large to help out with the sub.

Yeah the Criterion are late 60's early 70's vintage and when I originally hooked them up on their own had this beautiful rich sound that just screamed play moog music through me. Do you think replacing the capacitors would help? I have never opened them up to look at the crossovers, but may if it looks like a simple enough job for me, otherwise i might just replace the crossovers.

I am not to much worried about the low frequency response from the rears or during movies, I realize that there isn't much action there. Where it concerns me is when I am piping an analog signal out of my computers sound card to the receivers 5.1 inputs. I get left and right stereo on all channels for music that way. The sony amp doesn't do a very good job of driving the speakers in this situation which has been my main problem since I moved to my new place and set up in this room. For me the music is just as important as the movies, if not more so a lot of days, which is why I like the pre out and separate amps option the new receiver gives me.

 

[JohnRice]

Brad, if you are the type of individual who makes up his mind about what is the problem, then expects only to have his misconceptions confirmed, a public forum such as HTF is not the place to "ask" questions. You make repeated statements which exhibit a complete ignorance of the topic, then criticize those who give productive responses because they don't jibe with your misconceotions.

Once again, the good people who apply some experience and take the time to point you in the right direction are criticized. You might learn some fundamentals or actually listen to the responses you receive before criticizing them.

There have been a lot of new members lately clamoring for "more power" and I guess the standard response should be "yeah, get more power and that will solve all your problems" since that seems to be the only answer they accept.

 

[bradhart]

Dear Know it All Sanctimonious SOB,

rather than telling me go calibrate it which I have done to the best of my ability, please instruct lowly me on how to properly calibrate a system that only has two calibration functions. I have tried speaker size of both large and small coupled with distance from both my seating arrangement and center of the room. I can adjust bass and treble but that makes no real difference. I can and have adjusted the crossover frequency on my sub, I have found where I get the best sound for both movies and music. I have tried running my main speakers through the crossover on my sub which gives me clearer highs in movies but muddier lows with music.

Since the calibration and myself are obviously so screwed up I can't get the sound level or clarity I want with this receiver do please tell me how I get it since I am going to be moving it to a smaller room with smaller speakers as soon my new receiver which is generally considered a very nice one which suits my input needs for my room while the current one is not and does not. Please come down from on mount high and tell me how rather than just fling your directives in full 5.1 surround sound that I can barely hear from my rear speakers because they don't seem to be getting enough power to drive them. And for the record I have ordered an SPL meter to calibrate the new system with more precision, something I can do no more than I have already done with my current system.

 

[bradhart]

gee and the reason I ask about adding a speaker level amp is I can buy one with speaker level inputs Audio Source Amp 200 Sure I don't know everything that is why asked before buying something that might be able to independently control the volume of each set of speakers something I can not do on my current receiver.

 

[bradhart]

You like to make a lot of assumptions about people Oh High and Mighty One. Part of the reason for getting a different receiver is so I can set up for my space. I repeat I can not adjust the volume level of individual speakers or pairs of speakers on the receiver it just isn't one of the choices as i flip through the setup controls. I only have adjustments for speaker size and distance. Could be something is fundamentally wrong with the design which is why Sony quit producing the model, could be the receiver is simply broke and has always skipped over that selection, or possibly Sony simply felt that its automatic adjustments in speaker volume control based solely on its preselected environments and options was enough to make any entry level user happy. Could be the receiver as you suggested just useless. I am not missing anything, it just isn't there.

 

[mylan]

Look, if you are buying a new receiver, stop beating the dead horse that is your old Sony and quit wasting your money on amps that will not cure the problem.
If you are willing to buy an SPL meter then you are willing to learn how to adjust individual levels on each speaker but do not expect much help from members here by name calling, that is just childish and rude and against forum rules B.T.W.

 

[JohnRice]

Sure Brad, I'll continue to try to help you. No problem at all. Glad to do it.

I'll just say this, again. Even though I am no fan of Sony electronics, I can't believe they would make a digital surround receiver with no level controls. It would be completely worthless, and even Sony isn't that crappy. Where do you adjust it? I don't know. I don't know the specific controls of every single piece of electronics out there. You do have to take some responsibility to look at the manual and find out HOW to do some things with your specific equipment. It should be controlled by the remote, somewhere. It is typically not in the "Size/Distance" section, or even anywhere near it. LOOK IN THE MANUAL!!!

Regarding the amp you linked, that does not take the amplified signal and amplify it more. It takes the amplified signal, reduces it to line level, then amplifies it AGAIN, which is not a good thing for quality sound. Which is more help than your rudeness deserves.

As I said before, there has been a recent rash of new members who come in and ask questions, but only accept those they already thought were true. The interesting thing is, their threads always say something like "I need more power" and then completely ignore and insult the members who fully understand what they really need. I have better things to do, so I'll leave you to build your Frankenstein system without any more resistance.


BTW, As Mylan said, this is not your regular online forum. We don't name-call. I suggest you look around and do some reading before you continue posting this way. You may find yourself banned from the one place you can actually find the help you need, in a mature way.

 

[bradhart]

It isn't the movie sound track I am really all that worried about, like I said I get good sound out of the setup, just not great and with some of the tweaks i have made based on suggestions it is improving, but I still can't really drive the speakers very well when I am only playing music piped in through the analog 5.1 inputs from my computer sound card. I can carry music on all channels but not very loudly. I think part of it is the size of the room and the fact it opens up into my kitchen and and large entry way, part of it is the size of the speakers (the system originally was bundled with a DVD player and small cheap speakers) and part of it the receiver itself (it lacks the ability to adjust speaker volume independently).

I should be okay for sound when I move this receiver back to my office with just 4 small inifinity bookshelf speakers. I am just using it as an amp for my computer's sound card a creative labs x-fi. This setup sounded good on the receiver when it was in a small room before. However if I am still having problems getting low frequency responses out of the receiver do you have any other suggestions on how to fix it, or is it quite possibly just a broken receiver? The latter has been my thought since I brought it too my new house, it is its third move.

 

[drobbins]

I used a 10" JBL 100 watt in a 14x24 room. Way undersized. I added a second sub which helped greatly. Finally I was able to upgrade to a SVS PB12NSD. That did the trick. Having the right amount of bass helps all the sounds become fuller. Bass (below 80Hz) is not just in motors or explosions, it is also in many many other sounds like voices, doors shutting, footsteps, etc... Do you get the proper SLP throughout your room with your current sub? I would keep looking to upgrade.

 

[bradhart]

I may well add a second sub since adding an SVS sub is way out of my price range for the foreseeable future. I know I am not getting proper SLP throughout at the moment and may only ever come close to achieving it simply because it is an open room. Like I said I am getting good movie sound, it could be a lot better, but it is music where my current setup really falls short. Is adding a second sub really going to make Dark Side of the Moon sound any better while I am lying in the middle of my living room floor contemplating torturing the moron who spilled ice on the floor as I was walking through.

Secondly if I do get a second sub do you think it would be better if I matched the jbl 10" i have now or went with the 12".

 

[LanceJ]