Need help with LFE/Bass routing options

Discussion in 'AV Receivers' started by JohnMark, Apr 19, 2005.

  1. JohnMark

    JohnMark Agent

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    I want to set my speakers as follows and I am not sure which brand of receiver allows this logic.
    I want to set fronts to large and center to small.
    I want the bass from the center routed to the fronts.
    I would like my HT reciever to route ONLY the dedicated LFE (.1 channel from DD/DTS) signal to the sub out.

    Which receivers allow this setup?

    I don't believe my Yamaha RXV3300 will.
    I also have a Denon 3802 and I don't think it will either.
    But I think HK receivers do allow this choice.


    Any help out there ??
     
  2. John S

    John S Producer

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    You got me.. Now that's some bass management!!! [​IMG]

    The Denon can do it, if you simply don't run a center channel and let that center be routed to the two fronts.
     
  3. John Garcia

    John Garcia Executive Producer

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    I haven't seen any receiver that will do that. As soon as you set any speaker to small, it is redirected to the sub and/or mains set to large.
     
  4. JohnMark

    JohnMark Agent

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    If I read the online manual for the HK receivers correctly,
    they do say that there is such as setting, but I was hoping an HK owner could confirm.
     
  5. David Judah

    David Judah Screenwriter

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    I'm curious--why do you want to set it like that? Are you concerned you are going to overload the sub by sending LFE and bass redirected from the small channels? I would frankly be more concerned about overloading my mains.

    If it is because of compensation for a weak sub, you could set the sub to both so it's duplicated in the mains and the sub. Assuming proper placement(lessening the effect of cancellations), it can provide more bass output in such a situation.

    DJ
     
  6. JohnMark

    JohnMark Agent

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    Alot of the impact of a movie is from the center channel, and my mains are full range, biamped with dual 10"s , so I wanted to keep the low frequencies from the center channel in the center of the soundstage. I can't really fit a full range center on top of TV, my center is only a 5" woofer so I would like to crossover at 120hz.

    I do like having the LFE channel off in the corner of the room where I get more reinforcement. And I can't place it anywhere near the center of the room anyway.

    When I play music, I just use my mains and don't want the subwoofer helping. Even when I play DPLII music which includes center I prefer not to have the sub. My surrounds are full range oddly.

    Bottom line is I only want the sub active for the LFE effects of the movie soundtrack, but I still need to re-direct bass from the center speaker. I know I could do this if I went with a Outlaw ICBM, but it is another piece of equipment in the path.
     
  7. John Garcia

    John Garcia Executive Producer

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    Bass is non-directional, so it won't exactly be "centered" by playing it in the mains, unless you are crossing over relatively high. ICBM or a center that can handle more bass and be set to large might be your best choices.

    Unless your mains are strong to the low 30s, I wouldn't consider them full range. As David touched on as well, having too many speakers playing the same frequencies can actually be a problem rather than a benefit, due to standing waves and cancellation or boosting of certain freuqencies.

    I never play music in DPL, so can't help you there.

    Sounds like H/K does offer something more along the lines of what you want, in that you will have more flexible bass management for different types of listening situations.
     
  8. John S

    John S Producer

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    I'd try getting rid of the center all together. Sounds like it isn't very timbre matched to the mains anyways.

    This gives you all the center full range into your mains set to large, LFE only to sub. Works pretty well really, I'm thinking of doing this with my system, as I have no real great place to even put a center channel. In some testing, it worked better than I expected it too.

    I only got the idea from a recent thread here. I tend to hate the way center specific speakers sound in general even though I use the same speaker in every location. I do think this is possibly a better rout for many to take, particularly those that have a way mis-matched center channel speaker.
     
  9. JohnMark

    JohnMark Agent

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    My Hitachi 65" HiDef (just loveit) does allow the option to use it as a center channel speaker fed by the center preout of my receiver, but it did not sound as good as my dedicated center speaker even with the limits of a 5" woofer.

    I have breifly tried to listen without a dedicated center, but I like the directional cues of having a dedicated center along with the right/lefts speakers. Even for most on air TV shows which I always listen to in DPL II. Besides, I have the digital cable box thing and alot of movies and shows are broadcast in true 5.1 digital, so I do not want to eliminate center.

    Any opinions on the HK receivers, like the AVR 435?
    It also has the room equalizer feature that my Yamaha does not have and I was wondering if this would be another reason to change.
     
  10. John Garcia

    John Garcia Executive Producer

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    Speaking of calibration, have you calibrated your system at all? That, and proper speaker placement can make a HUGE difference in your system, and the center in particular. If you do not do a manual calibration, then the Auto-EQ would be a plus. I prefer to have a center also; properly calibrated, it really anchors on-screen sounds and dialogue.

    All 5 speakers in my main HT use 5 1/4 drivers crossed over at 80Hz and I don't have any issues reaching their limits, even at extreme levels.

    I've always liked the sound of the H/Ks.
     
  11. JohnMark

    JohnMark Agent

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    I need a good test CD / DVD so that I can measure my system response. Are there any test dics that provide test tones and sweeps of the entire audio spectrum, of each channnel individually and also altogeather?
    I saw this disc on ebay and it looked promising but the test tones are played thru all channels simultaneuosly.

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=5767925940


    I was going to buy a RadioShack SPL meter anyway.
     
  12. David Judah

    David Judah Screenwriter

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    You could try Avia for setting channel levels; it also has video adjustments for your Hitachi TV as well.

    I don't think even the HK's can do what you want to do, but maybe an HK owner could clarify, since I don't own one. That kind of BM scheme sounds like something that would be on a pricey pre/pro.

    You could wire your receiver's main speaker terminals to the high power inputs on the sub(and then on to the speakers), set your center to small, sub to no, and set the sub's crossover setting in the 30's. There's not much down there for music, so most everything would be high passed out to your mains and your sub would reproduce the real low frequency information.

    The problem with that, of course, is you are depending on the quality of the sub's HP filter. It might be worth a try though, if you can't find another solution.

    Full range mains and surrounds, huh? Rare indeed. I've never owned or think I've even heard a system set-up like that. Interesting.

    Good luck,

    DJ
     
  13. John Garcia

    John Garcia Executive Producer

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    The high pass is generally fixed at something between 80-120hz, not variable, on nearly all subs. The variable adjustment usually only affects the low pass, so I don't think that will work for what he's trying to do.

    You might look into a Sony ES receiver as well. They have the most flexible bass management I've seen so far - you can adjust the x-over point for various sets of channels independently, so you could set one x-over point for the center and a much lower one for the mains. That is exactly how I setup my friend's system with his 3ES, based on the specs of each set of speakers since he has floorstanders that extend relatively low too. It works quite well.
     
  14. David Judah

    David Judah Screenwriter

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    Despite the wrong terminology on my part, it should still work. If he sends the full range signal to the sub through the high level inputs(with the high level outputs going back to the speakers)and the low pass filter is set ~35Hz, he'll get all the very LF's for DVD tracks to the sub, but when he's listening to music, very little will be produced by it(for most types of music).

    DJ
     
  15. John Garcia

    John Garcia Executive Producer

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    Your terminology wasn't wrong; the point I was making was the low pass (played by the sub) is variable, while the high pass is generally fixed at one point, unaffected by the adjustment of the x-over control. That would mean the mains will be getting crossed over somewhere around 100Hz and response will drop off quickly below that. With the sub set to 35Hz, there will be a huge dip in response.
     
  16. David Judah

    David Judah Screenwriter

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    I admit I don't have alot of experience with store bought subs(so I might get a little education), since I make my own passives, but I thought if you used the high level ins & outs, it passed everything above the variable crossover setting to the speakers.

    A fixed high pass at 80-100 Hz doesn't sound optimal, since most folks will be low passing in that range.

    DJ
     
  17. MattJB

    MattJB Auditioning

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    I can shed some light on this as I have an HK AVR235. You can do a lot of the things you would like to do with an HK but there are some you will not be able to do. You can set all you speaker sizes the way you would like and you can also set individual crossovers. What you would not be able to do is decide where you are redirecting your bass to. When you select your L/R to large then you are redirecting all of your low frequencies to your mains. Now you can also select your L/R to large and select your subwoofer. Now that would send all of you LFE to the sub and mains. You could also select your L/R to small and then your LFE would go to the sub. HK does allow for different settings per source per surround mode. You could come very cloe to what your are trying to accomplish. If you cant completely understand this I will elaborate some more if you would like.
     

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