My first RPTV...yuk...

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Ed Swank, Jan 28, 2003.

  1. Ed Swank

    Ed Swank Auditioning

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2002
    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0
    I just purchased a Toshiba 50" wide screen. I've hooked it up to my Sony t-60 via the S-video input as well as the regular coax. The picture isn't all that impressive. Some horizontal lines, blockiness, fuzziness, and jaggies. Nothing radical mind you, but a big difference from the 32" Sony Tube TV it replaced.

    I set up manual preference for the Superbowl. Just seemed fuzzy. Even DVD's didn't look to sharp. I'm actually disappointed. I have no noise setting. I have reduced contrast quite a bit, brought the brightness down, and the color level down. Although it looked better, it looks like a first generation projection set. I also ran the convergence calibration test from the button in front.
    I expected at least the DVD to knock my socks off, but it didn't. I tried Bugs life (my standard for testing), and MI2. Makes me want to roll my 32" Sony back into the room. I used S video out on the DVD player (no composite). The demo DVD they ran in Best Buy looked excellent on this set (I did not get the Demo unit). The saleman said it was recorded from an HD signal.
    I do use Theaterwide mode 1. I'm happy that the picture fills in nicely from natural mode, which actually doesn't look good.

    As I said, this is my first big screen. I *Should* be 'lovin' it.
    The Superbowl really seemed ugly to me. Cameras on the players were fair, but the camera pointing down on the field before a play seemed like a fuzzy mess.
    Sorry to go on here, but this is disappointing. Plus my wife wonders why I removed a crisp 32" trinitron for a picture like this one has, regardless of size.....I need to make it better.

    I plan on tracking down one of the Avia disks. But I have a hard time believing I can really make the picture crisper through changes made with the remote control.

    Any thoughts?
     
  2. Michael TLV

    Michael TLV THX Video Instructor/Calibrator

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2000
    Messages:
    2,909
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Calgary, Alberta
    Real Name:
    Michael Chen
    Greetings

    AVIA is a good start. There are many physical tweaks you can also do to the TV if you are willing to do it yourself.

    If not, there are always the professional calibrator guys that will get your set to its optimal performance point.

    You have to weigh this as a cost of service versus cost of your time dilemma.

    Regards
     
  3. DerekF

    DerekF Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2001
    Messages:
    184
    Likes Received:
    0
    "I used S video out on the DVD player (no composite)."

    You should try using the component output of the DVD player. I'll wager you'll see an improvement over S-Video.

    Cheers,

    Derek
     
  4. Ed Swank

    Ed Swank Auditioning

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2002
    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0
    I wouldn't mind paying for a calibration (how much is a calibration??), if I knew I would get the results I *think* I should have. Being my first set, I'm unsure what "optimal" looks like.
    I think I got composite and component confused. I have the video, audio RCA jacks, The S-video with RCA audio, and thats it. I don't have the top end connections. The S video is the best mine has.
    I do have a Toshiba portable DVD with the component out and progressive scan. Maybe I should try that out and see what the TV looks like as opposed to the satellite signal.
     
  5. Eric Bass

    Eric Bass Second Unit

    Joined:
    Apr 13, 2000
    Messages:
    308
    Likes Received:
    0
    As I understand it, RPTV isn't going to hold up like a direct view up close. I've taken good long looks at some friends and from 6' away they don't look all that good. But from 12' away, they look great. That changes if you get a HD signal, but on regular programming, from what I've been able to tell, until you step back a ways they all have a poorer picture than a standard TV.
     
  6. ManW_TheUncool

    ManW_TheUncool Producer

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2001
    Messages:
    5,987
    Likes Received:
    36
    Location:
    The BK
    Real Name:
    ManW
    Ed,

    Are you sure they were running a DVD for the demo at Best Buy and not an HD feed?

    Anyway, you should properly setup the TV w/ a good calibration disc like Avia as mentioned. Also, you might need to do manual convergence, instead of relying on the auto stuff. And if you have the stomach for it, manually tweaking the focusing might help although that probably requires getting into the guts of the TV. Don't know how this stuff is done on a Toshiba though--I have a Panny.

    Btw, you should always let the TV warmup for 30-45min before doing any adjustments and tweaks, and the TV's characteristics will drift over the first 100 hours or so.

    Also, you can't really compare the 50" to your old 32" from the same viewing distance, if that's what you're doing. Try looking at the new TV from ~1.5x the distance as you used to and it'll look more like the 32" in apparent PQ. The new TV is bigger, but it doesn't give you any more resolution than the DVD or your regular TV sources did before. Upgrading the DVD player and connection will help some, but don't expect a miracle. [​IMG]

    In the end, what you might really need is an HD feed. Then you could sit really close and still be WOW-ed! [​IMG] FWIW, the few HD broadcasts of the NFL playoffs, including the Super Bowl (and movie trailers), looked awesome, except when they switched to the non-HD cameras on occasion. [​IMG] Too bad the SB itself was mostly a dud. [​IMG]

    _Man_
     
  7. Ed Swank

    Ed Swank Auditioning

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2002
    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm ordering the Avia disk today. I'll cross my fingers.
    The demo at the store was supposedly a DVD recorded from an HDTV signal (what I was told anyhow). The clips did loop.
    At the moment I have DirecTV fed throught a combo receiver thats a TiVo. They don't make the HDTV/TiVo combo yet. I thought of getting a seperate HDTV receiver and antenna for OTH and plugging it into one of the inputs. But, after laying down the $$, my wife would string me up if I told her we need another $400 piece of equipment to get a nice picture on "some" channels.
    I'll have to hang around here a bit more before I start monkeying around inside the set.
     
  8. JackS

    JackS Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2002
    Messages:
    634
    Likes Received:
    0
    ED- Call Toshiba and get a tech to come out and adjust your set for you. Part of the cost is after all, a guarantee that the set will perform to your satisfaction. If it should turn out that the service call doesn't improve your set , begin the process of replacement. Having just bought an RP and looking at most all of them, it was my impression that any HD set should be very pleasing no matter what brand.
     
  9. Mark Zimmer

    Mark Zimmer Producer

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 1997
    Messages:
    4,300
    Likes Received:
    40
    On a large screen cable or regular TV will look crappy, period. But on a Toshiba of that size you should have a great picture from DVD, even close up. I sit about 5' away from my 65" Toshiba and the picture's very crisp. Try the component connections and calibrate with VE or Avia and see if that doesn't help.
     
  10. ManW_TheUncool

    ManW_TheUncool Producer

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2001
    Messages:
    5,987
    Likes Received:
    36
    Location:
    The BK
    Real Name:
    ManW
    Wow! 5ft away from a 65"?! That must be the closest by far around these parts.

    I do 8ft eyes-to-screen from a 53" Panny.

    _Man_
     
  11. Matt Wallace

    Matt Wallace Second Unit

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 1999
    Messages:
    400
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ed,
    What you are experiencing is normal. As I read your posts, I'm like "that's me 4 months ago!!!". I had a 32" Trinitron that the wife loved, Bugs Life WAS my reference material, and I couldn't stand the way everything looked fuzzy. Give yourself at least 2 weeks, if not longer, to get used to the difference. Not only with cable/DirecTv, but with DVD, too. Titles I used to think were razor sharp are more revealed on a 50 inch widescreen set. There's no faking it now!
    Give your wife a few weeks to get used to it, too. My wife hated the resolution difference and stretch mode for normal tv at first, but got used to it after a few weeks and now fights me to watch things on it! The set will break in during that amount of time and your eyes WILL adjust, I promise. The only thing I can recommend beyond AVIA to help you out is getting a component connection going to that set. I don't have Progressive Scan yet, but my Toshiba 2109 through the component set up looks much improved. I wasn't wowed by the DVD side of things initially, either, but the tv still had to break in and calm down a little. I also had to get used to the fact that what I was seeing on the 32" before was an illusion that wasn't real - it's compressed so small (comparitively)that it doesn't show most flaws you are finding now. My personal idea of reference discs changed overnight. From the Bug's Life side of Pixar to Toy Story 2 and Monster's Inc.
    Give it some time, man! But DO use AVIA right away and again in a few weeks. And DO get component cables (generally Red Green and Blue RCA type connections) on that TV!

    Take Care,

    Matt
     
  12. Dan Ponze

    Dan Ponze Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2002
    Messages:
    54
    Likes Received:
    0
    I watched the superbowl on a 50 inch Toshiba in HD and it was jaw dropping. LOVED it. I am definately stepping up to HD VERY soon. I think you have to look into getting HD signal soon to really reap the benefits of the set you have.
     
  13. lee.b

    lee.b Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2002
    Messages:
    53
    Likes Received:
    0
    "I also had to get used to the fact that what I was seeing on the 32" before was an illusion that wasn't real - it's compressed so small (comparitively)that it doesn't show most flaws you are finding now."

    I'm not so sure that that's a fair statement. And I wouldn't mind hearing someone speak on it.

    Just what do you mean by "compressed".. the assertion that actual compression is taking place, or that the picture size is smaller than the rptv?

    If compression is the culprit, then why does any upsized crt set in hd show excellent quality in a size that more closely approaches that of a small rptv?

    As an owner of a 27" wega, I'm hooked on clarity. I have been without it for a long time, and now that I see what current technology can do...I want it. Clarity comes first for me, size second. I think that should have merit, at least for those that prioritize that way. While I personally would never get an rptv just for the sake of size over clarity, It doesn't mean that I don't pine for a larger set than my 27" - especially when it comes to letter box dvd. My own tv goals involve upgrading the size only to the point where there isn't a 'noticeable' clarity issue.

    While there may always be some degradation when trading up in size (except going from non hd to hd, perhaps, etc)for me, the issue is drawing a line at the point where I have size..but have lost the essence of having superior clarity.

    I think the original post is useful and so are the responses. I only hope that the answers are based on reality and not any one person's (including me)bias towards one medium. If an rptv at a particular size simply will not perform clarity issues like a high quality 32" picture, I hope the concensus of opinion would be to tell him so..and offer realistic options available.

    I have been so impressed by the new wegas, that, to me, it has set a standard of a minimum picture quality I never want to be without. For my next tv, I want to improve on that quality (vis a vis hd for dvds and slightly larger tv for letter box movies)not go backwards for the sake of clarity issues. With a high quality crt, example hd sony capable wegas, I know I can accomodate this by purchasing a larger crt tv. Rptv is not an option for me, and would not be, unless the scale of my existence and living room doubled. Why is bigger better? I know...many here prefer to be more immersed in the film, and the size/cost issue...and I respect that.

    As part of my vocation, I enter many a folk's home. I see many rptvs. I have not seen one that made me say..."I can't believe the picture..I need this"

    I don't mean to get anyone annoyed with me..it's just my opinion. But I do hope that the limitations and realities of rptv are expressed accurately. On the other hand, I don't mind hearing dissenting opinions...I remain open-minded and don't mind being educated.
     
  14. ManW_TheUncool

    ManW_TheUncool Producer

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2001
    Messages:
    5,987
    Likes Received:
    36
    Location:
    The BK
    Real Name:
    ManW
    Lee,

    Have you actually seen HD content on an RPTV yet? If not, you should. FWIW, Michael_TLV pointed out in the other recent thread that compared direct-view to RPTV that the Sony 36XBR450 does about 750x1080 w/ a 1080i source vs an RPTV that does about 1200x1080--most CRT-based HD RPTVs seem to do about this resolution. Don't know if you read that one since you didn't comment there.

    http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htfo...?s=&forumid=72

    Anyway, if apparent PQ/clarity for DVD in a relatively short viewing distance is your #1 priority, then one of the larger HD Wegas is probably best for you.

    _Man_
     
  15. David Lorenzo

    David Lorenzo Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2002
    Messages:
    198
    Likes Received:
    0
    lee.

    I don't want to speak for Matt, but I'm sure he said compressed as referring to making something smaller.

    In a few years I bet RPTVs will become just as detailed and focused as good direct-view sets. I don't think, however, that they will be CRT based. Digital light technology will take over in every price point of the RPTV market. Texas Insruments wants to make DLP RPTVs competitively priced to CRT based sets so it's only a matter of time until it becomes a reality. Plasmas are another technology that will surpass CRT based RPTVs. They are almost perfect devices. They only have a few flaws that will certainly be gone in the near future.
     
  16. Ed Swank

    Ed Swank Auditioning

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2002
    Messages:
    10
    Likes Received:
    0
    Well, the Avia disk is on the way. I somehow managed to get the wife onboard for a HDTV receiver (must be my good looks). Anyway, I was going to pick up the bottom end Samsung since I already have DirecTV w/Tivo. And an antenna of some type. This is a temporary thing until the end of the year when the HDTV/DTV/TiVo receivers come out. I know this is the display devices forum, but any advice on the HDTV receivers. Is there a reson to buy the more expensive units? Didn't want to spend to much just to get 6 channels.
    Thanks folks. This has been a great thread for me.
     
  17. Jan Strnad

    Jan Strnad Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 1999
    Messages:
    1,004
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ed,

    You really should be wowed by your new set. I second the opinion to get a service tech out to see if something isn't wrong.

    Then, do the Avia thing.

    Then, learn to do the 56-point convergence in the service menu. The 9-point convergence you can set with the user controls is okay, but you can do better.

    I'd put off the HD tuner purchase, personally, and put $150 or so into a DVD player with progressive outputs.

    Re: the HD tuner. Beginning with the 2004 model year (sets coming out this fall), all TV sets over 36" must come with built-in HD tuners according to FCC decree. We'll see a dramatic drop in HD tuner prices then, if not before. Already I've heard of the Hughes tuner going for as little as $298.

    But, here's my point: You shouldn't have to get HD to be wowed by this set. If you're not wowed already, and you aren't, then something is probably out of whack, such as focus or convergence, and it's still going to be out of whack with HD sources.

    I'd get that tech out ASAP.

    Keep us posted!

    Jan
     
  18. Matt Wallace

    Matt Wallace Second Unit

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 1999
    Messages:
    400
    Likes Received:
    0
    Lee.b,
    First off, don't get your panties in a wad - "just what do you mean" ... Sounds a little confrontational.
    Until you upgrade, in your own personal viewing habits, from a tube to a projection set, it would be pointless for me to explain to you what the difference is in what you see. This argument was pointless for myself, as well, until I upgraded and actually experienced what folks have been talking about for awhile around here - RPTV's are more filmlike and HDTV is not a fluke. They DO magnify imperfections that you would not notice on a smaller set-garbage in, garbage out. Are they "compressed" on a tube? No, that's an improper use of that term (unless talking about anamorphic widescreen), so I'll say they are "not as noticeable". They are always there, you just don't see them. However, you keep talking about "quality" and "clarity" all throughout your post, but that is inaccurate as well. Those are very subjective terms and make any discussion of technology more difficult and less precise. I'd define clarity as resolution, and my HDTV will outperform - in numerical fashion, as stated in a previous post - any non-HD tube television. I think what you are referring to as clarity would more likely fall under the term "sharpness" and have something to do with light output. These aren't the only factors in reproducing a film (via DVD,etc) faithfully. They may make standard tv/satellite look more appealing , but I find my rear projection, HDTV to look much more film-like and enjoyable after a time of adjusting to what was desirable vs. what I was just used to seeing. Never in my original post do I mention that RPTV's are worse and that's why you have to adjust - you are adjusting to a different presentation, and most of the time, it's more faithful to the original content/format. Standard NTSC was designed with tube sets and their specifications in mind. DVD and ATSC/HDTV was more open. Depending on your viewing, you may have a preference, but it doesn't make it any more right or wrong. And I state this still enjoying both tube and RPTV viewing at home. I also helped my in-law's get a 27" Wega a few months ago, so I know they are a nice tv from personal experience.
    You also stated: "With a high quality crt, example hd sony capable wegas, I know I can accomodate this by purchasing a larger crt tv. Rptv is not an option for me, and would not be, unless the scale of my existence and living room doubled. Why is bigger better?" Bigger isn't always better - you are talking about the qualities of a technology/delivery system, not a size issue. Wega's go only up to 40" as a tube before they change into LCD technology, so obviously they share an open-mind for delivery of quality/clarity as well. It's hard to argue some of your points, as you use "crt" alot; I'm not sure if you're referring to cathode ray tube, as in singular, or crt as in projection crt. They stand for the same words but have different contexts. Usually on this forum if someone refers to crt they are referring to RPTV/FP crt's, but that doesn't invalidate your proper usage at all.
    In the end, you have to do what's right for you. Enjoy what you have now and keep an open mind. But don't tell me that I'm not representing the qualities/limitations of RPTV's in a biased or inaccurate fashion - I've had both and can comment on the pros and cons. I don't care if you post your comments and experience - that makes this forum great - but don't question mine just because it doesn't agree.

    Matt
     
  19. ManW_TheUncool

    ManW_TheUncool Producer

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2001
    Messages:
    5,987
    Likes Received:
    36
    Location:
    The BK
    Real Name:
    ManW
    Hmmm... Now that I think of it, Jan's probably right about the need for a progressive scan DVD player--not just the s-video vs component issue. IIRC, Michael_TLV's update article about the current Toshiba's 540p upconversion shows poor performance for 480i input. It's probably ok for most other video sources, but not for good quality DVD.

    See here for what I mean:

    http://www.keohi.com/keohihdtv/brand...jul02_pg3.html

    _Man_
     
  20. Lee Bailey

    Lee Bailey Second Unit

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2000
    Messages:
    263
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Central California
    Real Name:
    Lee Bailey
    Ed, from what you have said so far, it really looks like you are too close to the TV. Your manual should have the recommended viewing distances and angles published in it. I'd be no closer than 7 ft to a screen that size. You can also turn down the sharpness to 0, or a few points above it. I still have an older (1999 vintage) Sony non-HD 4:3 TV and the picture quality on it is still great. In our living room, we sit about 12 feet away from it though.

    I would heartily agree that if you are not getting the picture quality you want, that you do place a service call to get it adjusted.

    my 2 cents worth.
     

Share This Page