My dilemma: Panasonic ZT vs. Samsung F8500 (1 Viewer)

[schan1269]

.
I can't review a film when I have a device artificially enhancing an image that
one, isn't representative of the final product and two, a result that 99% of the
rest of the forum membership will not be able to achieve without the device.

I haven't done a movie review(don't really want to unless it is "odd") yet and if I ever do a DVD review...I'd be cheating using a Hitachi ALiS/Oppo/Elite DV49.

I've never seen another plasma duplicate with upscaled DVD what an ALiS panel can do. Nevermind the issues it causes with native 1080P/24fps.

 

[RickardL]

You really are comparing apples to oranges.

Well, there is one standard reference for "apples" and another standard reference for "oranges"...
But I will not dive into that discussion any deeper, the interested reader can look at this http://www.audyssey.com/blog/reference-vs-preference

I can't review a film when I have a device artificially enhancing an image that
one, isn't representative of the final product and two, a result that 99% of the
rest of the forum membership will not be able to achieve without the device.

I agree 100% with that.

Now, when is your set arriving and what is the temperature outside?

 

[Ronald Epstein]

The display should be here within the hour.

The temperature is 35.7 degrees.

Will not be able to turn on the display for a few hours...

...meaning tomorrow afternoon until I can get to it.

 

[Robert Crawford]

Ronbo,

I can't wait to hear read your initial reports on your new display.

 

[Ronald Epstein]

Want to really test it out for another day before I post any comments here.

...however, I will give you a hint in saying that I am not regretting all I put
myself and Value Electronics through to make the exchange. It seems to
be worth it.

 

[Robert Crawford]

Want to really test it out for another day before I post any comments here.

...however, I will give you a hint in saying that I am not regretting all I put
myself and Value Electronics through to make the exchange. It seems to
be worth it.

That's good!

 

[RickardL]

FWIW, here are some 2D settings to try out...
Picture preset: Movie
Cell light 16-20 (set to your preference or with a meter)
Contrast 95 (should be set by using a test disc or a meter)
Brightness 48 (should be set by using a test disc)
Sharpness 0
Colour 50 (should be set by using a test disc or a meter)
Tint G50/G50 (should be set by using a test disc or a meter)
Picture size Screen Fit
Advanced:
Dynamic Contrast Off
Black Tone Off
Flesh Tone 0
Color space Auto
White Balance - default (should be set with a meter)
10p white balance - off (should be set with a meter)
Gamma 0
Picture Options:
Color tone Warm2
Digital Clean View Off
MPEG noise filter Off
HDMI Black level (low)
Film Mode Auto2 / Cinema Smoth* (Cinema Smoth for blu-ray 24fps, important to avoid non-film like look)
Motion Judder Canceller Off* (important to avoid non-film like look)
Black Optimiser Dark Room

The above is kind of the 2D settings I am currently using.

For 3D, Kevin Miller did these 3D settings: http://www.tweaktv.com/images/stories/EditorialImages/KevinMiller/Samsung/pn60f8500%20%20movie%203d%203-23-13.pdf

I really recommend the Spears and Munsil Blu-ray calibration disc, 2nd Edition, it can be used to set up most things by eye except the colour space and white balance stuff which requires a colorimeter.

Edit: In case you have an Oppo player, here are my BDP-103D video settings:
Setup->Video Setup
Setup->Video Setup->Picture Adjustments (all 0/default)
Dual HDMI Output Split A/V
3D Output Auto
3D Setting->Blank HDMI 2 Yes
3D Setting->2D-3D Depth 8
3D Setting->3D TV Size 64
TV Aspect Ratio 16:9/Wide
TV System Muti-system
Output Resolution 1080p
1080p24 Output Auto*
DVD 24p Conversion On*
4kx2K output Auto
HDMI Options->Color Space (HDMI 1) YCbCr 4:4:4
HDMI Options->Color Space (HDMI 2) YCbCr 4:4:4
HDMI Options->Deep Color (HDMI 1) 36 Bits
HDMI Options->Deep Color (HDMI 2) Off
HDMI Options->De-interlacing Mode Film*

The settings which *could* influence a non-film like look or not, are those with an asterisk *.

 

[Ronald Epstein]

My thoughts on the Panasonic 65ZT60 vs. Samsung 64F8500 (from an actual owner of both)

First of all, I know how opinions like the one I am about to express, end up causing discourse. Owners of either of these two displays are going to take issues to heart and defend their product to no end. That's understandable. I am going to say right off the bat that both the ZT60 and F8500 are the best plasma displays I have had the opportunity to try. Each has their own advantages and each has their shortcomings. Neither is 100% perfect.
Before I post my opinions, there are a few people I need to thank....
First and foremost is Robert Zohn and Value Electronics. I put that man through hell over the past few weeks, and he remained patient and gracious. He knew I was unhappy with my ZT60 and allowed me several weeks to make certain I was making the right choice in trading up to the F8500. I would highly recommend if you are going to buy any display, to use Value Electronics.
I want to thank a few online members, particularly Ken for inviting me to his home and allowing me to look at his Samsung display in order to make an educated opinion. I want to thank Jamie for keeping in touch with me. He actually traded his F8500 for a ZT60 and was going through the same fear that I was about whether the right choice was being made. Finally, I need to thank Ed for phoning me and guiding me through the Samsung menu system to make recommended adjustments. What a nice guy to talk to. Finally, HTF member RickardL who has been providing me with settings that have made a positive change to the display. Thank You, Rickard!

BRIEF HISTORY

I didn't need to buy a new plasma. I already owned a 3 year-old LG THX 3D display that I was very happy with. However, when Panasonic announced it was going to stop making plasmas, I knew I had to own one. I have industry friends at Panasonic and was one of the very first consumers to see their 3D prototype several years ago. Ever since then, I have always believed Panasonic to be an innovator in plasma technology.
I contacted Robert Zohn at Value Electronics, went to his store, and looked at the Panasonic 65" ZT60 and Samsung 64" F8500 side-by-side. Both Mr. Zohn and agreed that the F8500 looked better. It was brighter and sharper than the Panasonic. The Panasonic looked washed out and dull. I left the store not knowing which I would purchase. When I returned home, I spoke with my business partners who know plasmas much better than I do. Both told me never to judge a plasma in a lit store. Furthermore, one of my business partners just bought a ZT60 and he was raving about it.
I decided to order the ZT60. When I got it home, I was disappointed. Blu-rays looked terrific. There were levels of black I had never witnessed before. Movies had that smooth, cinematic look to them. The problem was broadcast television and 3D. There just wasn't enough light being outputted on the Panasonic ZT60 to give dark scenes more detail. I am a huge fan of 3D. I own well over 100 3D Blu-ray titles (most of which I have reviewed on this forum), and I know what every one of them should look like. I was disappointed to find a loss of detail and pop-out because the Panasonic ZT60 just couldn't push enough luminance.
While I received several remarks from online ZT60 owners that I should be making adjustments to the panel brightness, I spoke with two separate leading calibrators who both admitted that this display could probably not be driven much higher in luminance.
Mind you, I was watching the ZT60 in a totally darkened room. It wasn't a matter that the display was awfully dark. It just always seemed to me that the picture should have a little more brightness to it. Certainly, it wasn't up to the level of brightness I had experienced on my LG display. The Panasonic didn't have that punch in picture that I was used to seeing. Everything from broadcast to Blu-ray had a much softer look to it. That has its advantages and disadvantages (which I will go into shortly).
I contacted Robert at Value Electronics, asked if I could swap for the Samsung F8500, and he agreed.
In the meantime, I started reading all these horror stories from F8500 owners about plasma buzz, vertical banding and severe 3D crosstalk. Trust me, I was getting nervous that perhaps I was not making the right decision.


Samsung F8500 vs. Panasonic ZT60

To begin with, I am basing these opinions on out-of-the-box settings. Neither display was properly calibrated. I will be the first to admit that experiences could be altered through calibration. However, I am also presuming a great deal of people will be happy with the settings out of the box (both look exceptional) and will not need calibration.
When I first turned the Samsung F8500 on, I was immediately upset that the picture looked as dim as the ZT60, that is, until I went from STANDARD to MOVIE mode. All of a sudden, the display lit up like a night game at Shea Stadium. It's amazing to see how much brighter this display is.....
...and for me, that made all the difference in the world.
Everything from broadcast television to Blu-ray looked brighter, punchier and sharper. One of the first things you notice is how "white" the whites actually are. I was able to boost their level with the help of Ed, who told me to put the display settings in Warm1.
Amazingly -- and you can believe this or not --- the Samsung F8500 has the same black levels as the Panasonic ZT60. I see no difference in blacks. They are just as deep. I put in a Blu-ray copy of Mary Poppins, a film I had recently watched on the ZT60. In the second or third chapter of the film we first watch Mr. Banks walk into his home. The color of his suit is just as immensely black on the Samsung as it was on the ZT60. This display does an unbelievable job of displaying black levels. Even the OPPO Blu-ray menu is as inky black on the Samsung as it was on the Panasonic. So, to my eyes, there is no loss in black level anywhere.
The initial problem with the Samsung, however, is that it has an entirely different type of picture than the Panasonic. As I mentioned above, the Panasonic picture is soft, smooth, and very cinematic looking. Film looks like film. On the Samsung, everything looks like video. I watched Mary Poppins and it looked like it was shot on video -- almost like a live stage play. I put in a 3D Blu-ray of Avatar and it looked like a video game.
I was able to alleviate the problem by going into picture settings and enabling Cinema Smooth. It seemed to make the image more film-like. I am probably going to opt for professional calibration to get the image more likened to what I saw on the Panasonic.
To give credit to the Panasonic, I feel the ZT60 had deeper, more saturated colors than the F8500. However, again, calibration might improve upon that.

Here Is The Real Beauty of The F8500

3D. By far, watching 3D on this Samsung is more enjoyable than it was on the Panasonic.
Light output is everything. I was seeing a level of depth and detail that I could not achieve on the Panasonic. Pop-out is immensely more evident because of the improved luminance level. Using the crappy 3D glasses that came with the display, I sat there with my mouth hanging open at how friggin' great the level of 3D was. Even my LG Plasma (which was a 1st generation 3D display) couldn't achieve this level of dimensionality.
Crosstalk? Didn't see it. In fact, I was looking at a perfectly bright 3D picture that exhibited no ghosting whatsoever. Mind you, I only tried about three discs. I haven't looked at HUGO, which is one of the most crosstalk riddled 3D Blu-rays out there.
But, again, I am not going to give total praise to the Samsung on its 3D. It still looks more "video" like in appearance. This could be the reason for the exaggerated levels of 3D depth and pop-out. However, I must admit, I am enjoying it.
Have already ordered the $50 rechargeable Samsung glasses from Amazon and will try those out later today when they arrive.


APPS AND CONNECTIVITY

Only briefly had the chance to really play with the apps. However, I can say that the web browsing experience is much better on the Samsung, particularly in allowing me to use a Logitech keyboard. The Panasonic would recognize and pair my Logitech DiNovo keyboard, but it would not recognize its built-in trackpad. The Samsung had no problem allowing me to use my DiNovo, fully, with its built-in mouse trackpad. It's nice to be able to sit in my home theater and check my online email. I am just a little surprised that despite my direct ethernet connection, the browser response time is a bit slow. This is probably due to a limited amount of processing power being allocated to the browser. After all, this isn't an HTPC.
Also found the Samsung built-in virtual keyboard to be easier to use. It attempts to auto-complete words as you type, learning new words (such as email addresses) as you type them in.
One of the things I was most looking forward to was the SCREEN MIRRORING function. Using my Samsung Galaxy Note 3, I was successfully able to transmit content from my phone to my display. I watched a few HD recordings that I made on my phone. They looked outstanding on the Samsung display, though there were initial hiccups in the streaming (it paused several times) that improved substantially upon second and third attempts. In all, it's kind of cool to know that I can take photos and videos on my Samsung phone and wirelessly transmit them to my display.
The fixed camera atop the television is useless to me. I sit on a couch to watch television, and the camera won't look that far down. I am hoping there is an external camera I can purchase that will allow me to tilt it downwards.
Also tried the hand gesture control with the pop-up camera. Maybe I don't have it set up correctly, but I haven't been able to pause movies with my hands. Perhaps I just haven't gotten the hang of it. Also, since I have a Tivo, all the remote control functions and hand gestures don't work with that brand despite the fact that I set up an IR commander beneath the set-top box.

Final Thoughts

Again, I stress, both the Panasonic ZT60 and Samsung F8500 are exceptional displays. As everyone else has stated, if you are in a darkened environment, the ZT60 is the better choice. In a room with a lot of windows and light, the F8500 is the better choice.
I think the ZT60 offers a more cinematic, softer picture. The F8500 looks more "video" in appearance. Thus far, enabling Cinema Smooth has greatly reduced that "soap opera" effect.
For me, I just didn't think that the ZT60 was capable of pushing enough light for my tastes, even in a totally darkened room. This is not a popular opinion, but there have been several online members who have expressed they wished the Panasonic pushed just a little more luminance.
Of course, stating these kind of opinions on an Internet forum filled with owners of both displays is only going to cause discourse. I can only attempt to appease both sides by saying once again that both these displays were not calibrated and that each display is exceptional, but has trade-offs.
For my tastes, the Samsung F8500 is the better display, particularly for its 3D output. The Panasonic just didn't do justice to 3D content compared to the Samsung. I also feel the Samsung has much better whites while retaining the same black levels of the ZT60.
...and thankfully no issues with my Samsung. There is absolutely no panel buzz. I see no vertical banding. 3D is just friggin' unbelievable with no noticeable crosstalk.

 

[Robert Crawford]

As long as you're happy then that's all that matters in this particular situation. I won't comment any further about the picture differences between the two displays as I've learned a long time ago that picture quality is subjective by not only the person viewing the pictures, but the environment that picture is being shown in.

 

[Ronald Epstein]

Robert,

Exactly. You and I understand that. Others get too attached to a brand and what
they have spent an awful amount of money on.

This was a highly stressful experience for the past few weeks -- particularly knowing
I could get a defective F8500 and then having no recourse.

I am just relieved that I got a display that, thus far, I am much happier with.

 

[Charles Smith]

The hell with Hugo -- test it with Dial M!

Seriously, congrats on reaching the end of what has to have been an agonizing, but ultimately worthwhile, journey. I don't know if I could have stood up as well to that particular stress!

 

[RickardL]

Sounds promising!
But I am still confused by the "video" look you refer to.
Is that happening with new modern films only or does it happen with old ones as well, such as Hitchcock's Rebecca on Blu-ray?
Anyway, I think that the F8500 is more revealing and is therefore more sensitive to the source material...

 

[Ronald Epstein]

Rickard,

I mentioned Mary Poppins, and that is a classic.

So, yes, it looked like a videotaped stage play.

However, turning on Cinema Smooth seems to have fixed that.

And you are correct, this is a far more revealing display than the Panasonic.

BTW, mentioned this atop my review, but thank you for all your assistance.

 

[Reed Grele]

Ron,

I'd like to know how the "problem" 3D titles do on your new set in regards to crosstalk.

As Charles mentioned, The floating titles (and almost everything else) in Dial 'M'.

The scene in House of Wax: a few minutes after intermission where Vincent Price is giving the tour of the museum. His white shirt bleeds over onto his black suit. The shot right before the guillotine is particularly bad.

Despicable Me: Main title, and light poles in the distance as the little girls are leaving Gru's porch after trying to sell him the cookies.

Monsters and Aliens: The bridge sequence is among the worst.

Grand Canyon Adventure (IMAX): The notorious tree sequence near the beginning.

If it can perform well with these scenes, then you have a really good 3D set.

 

[FoxyMulder]

The scene in House of Wax: a few minutes after intermission where Vincent Price is giving the tour of the museum. His white shirt bleeds over onto his black suit. The shot right before the guillotine is particularly bad.

Monsters and Aliens: The bridge sequence is among the worst.

I have a Samsung E6500, it performs exceptionally well with 3D content but it's not as bright as the F8500, some minor ghosting in a handful of scenes with House Of Wax but no crosstalk issues with the bridge sequence of Monsters vs Aliens, i expect the F8500 will improve on my set with 3D.

 

[Sam Posten]

Ron, glad you are happy, that's the most important thing. Seriously, stop reading reviews and be happy with what you have got, tho I agree, get a calibration if you think it will help even more.I can't wait for the day when you are joining us in the projector realm tho =p

 

[pitchman]

Thanks for the in-depth comparison, Ron! Things that are important to you in a display, mirror my preferences exactly (and most especially when it comes to 3D quality). I have been eyeing the PN64F8500 for nearly a year and hope to pull the trigger on one in the next couple of months. Consequently, your 'real world' experience is of particular value to me. Thanks again for sharing and best of luck with your new TV!

 

[schan1269]

That 64F8500 won't be "around in the next couple of months".

The new one arrives in March.

Currently Amazon stopped selling them over quality issues.

 

[RickardL]

Currently, they have one left in stock. http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-PN64F8500-64-Inch-1080p-Plasma/dp/B00BCPH3YS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1390065667&sr=8-1&keywords=64f8500
When I checked a few minutes earlier, they had two left.

Edit: Apparently, their inventory doesn't work correctly... which is probably why it showed 2 in stock at the overview page and then just 1 one the product page....

Item Under Review

While this item is available from other marketplace sellers on this page, it is not currently offered by Amazon.com because customers have told us there may be something wrong with our inventory of the item, the way we are shipping it, or the way it's described here. (Thanks for the tip!)
We're working to fix the problem as quickly as possible

 

[Ronald Epstein]

Gary,

If you are looking for superior 3D quality, the Samsung F8500 is the best 3D I have seen. It beats the pants off of the Panny ZT60, and certainly, of my older LG THX plasma. This is because there is more luminance, which pushes out more detail in the 3D picture. The Panasonic ZT60 was dim enough, and with the added dimming in 3D, it wasn't pushing enough light to make the picture "pop."

I am really amazed how great 3D content looks. No crosstalk whatsoever.

Black levels seem as deep as the ZT60, though I have gotten into a lot of trouble suggesting that elsewhere. All I can say is that I am not a bit unhappy with the difference in black levels between the Panny and the Samsung.

Currently Amazon stopped selling them over quality issues.

I read that, but nobody is saying what those issues are.

I am not reading about a lot of issues with the display itself these days other than the occasional "buzz" problem that some people are experiencing.

I am involved in quite a few F8500 discussion threads across the Internet, and for the most part, owners seem to be happy.

So, I am kind of wondering what the problem really is. Amazon has kind of "generalized" the situation to include possible delivery problems.