My Denon DVD 2900 review [long] (1 Viewer)

[David S]

William - I will try this. I was close to this (need to turn filter off on the 950). Will report soon.

Rich - Ive always had the Sony in the MCH Direct mode, hence never noticed this. I'll check it out

 

[Bob Barton]

How's the Thelonius Monk Sacd? I was thinking to pick it up myself.

Lewis,

I think the Monk SACD is wonderful. Not only is Monk's piano great, but the sax player is great as well. It's a very good transfer, although a bit of background hiss. It was originally recorded in the mid sixties, so perhaps that has something to do with it. I had the vinyl version and think it's excellent music.

I also just picked up a Sony Classical SACD release,"George Szell And The Cleveland Orchestra - Beethoven" the music sounds unbelievable, the sound stage of the strings is like being there. However, this particular transfer is a lot of hiss, very annoying during quite passages. The hiss can even be heard through the entire SACD to some degree. This one was originally recorded in th elate fifties.

I need to find a SACD that demonstrates how good the format can be. Any one have any recommendations? BTW, the more I use it, the more I'm liking this player.

Thanks,
Bob

 

[Lewis Besze]

Bob,
thanks for the heads up on the TM SACD.
Yeah I was wondering about hiss or hum because of the age of the recording.
Too bad about the Szell/Cleaveland/Beethoven recording.
I had almost the same problem with Bernstein palying the Rapsody In Blue from Gershwin[with the NYPO].There was a contnious "hum",that was very annoying on soft passages as well,Great performance though.

I need to find a SACD that demonstrates how good the format can be. Any one have any recommendations?

Well if you like Vaughan Williams then check out his Sea Symphony[#1] with the Atlanta SO and Chorus Robert Spano conducting.
This is a pure DSD recording from the ground up from Telarc.
It has both MC and Stereo layers,and redbook layer as well.
It won't get any better to demonstrate the the format.

 

[Steve_AS]

Swans Diva speakers). It sounded far better to go without bass management altogether (until I added an Outlaw ICBM-1 into the system).

And again, I'd add: unless you know that the Outlaw ICBM and the Sony player use the same crossover setpoints and slopes, any difference you hear between their performance
could be due to those, rather than any supposed degradation due to extra A/D/A conversions.

Adjusting the levels with an SPL would not compensate for what would essentially be an EQ difference. And, too, if the player's time alignment circtuiry is kicking in (unlikely for SACD, but I'm guessing here) that too could make an audible difference.

Have you controlled for these variables when you do your comparisons?

 

[Rich Malloy]

And again, I'd add: unless you know that the Outlaw ICBM and the Sony player use the same crossover setpoints and slopes, any difference you hear between their performance
could be due to those, rather than any supposed degradation due to extra A/D/A conversions.

(sigh)

Pay attention now: I'm not comparing the signal using the C555ES's BM to the signal using the ICBM-1's BM. Take the ICBM out of the equation altogether. I'm comparing the use of the player's bass management vs. not using the player's bass management. A signal "processed" by the player's internal bass management vs. a "pure" signal. No subsequent processing of any kind is taking place in this comparison.

Steve, it's real simple: compare a disc using either of the "Direct" modes (multichannel or two channel) against any of the bass management modes. If you don't hear a rather significant dropoff in sound quality, then please report back your findings. You'll be the first. I've asked a gazillion times, because my original thought was that my player's bass management must be faulty. Unfortunately, it's been confirmed by folks in this forum and others... that's just how it sounds.

The Outlaw ICBM-1 was my solution to the problem above. It does bass management in the analog realm and is transparent to my ears, and to the ears of all who've tested it. Read the reviews. Our fellow forum member, John Kotches, wrote an excellent one on the ICBM and he agrees that it performs its bass management duties in a virtually transparent manner. Unlike our SACD players, unfortunately.

But if you're still interested in the crossover setpoints and slopes, though it has absolutely no bearing on the point I was making or the question I'm asking, it's been reported that the Sony players use a crossover point at or near 120Hz (they don't publish this info in the specs). Yes, you read that right... 120Hz. That might be ideal for the home-theater-in-a-box crowd, but it's wholly inapt for anyone with a set of real speakers. I don't know the slope. It's not published, and I'm not sure how to go about determining it on my own. Now's the time when you might suggest: "it's not the circuitry; it's the inapt crossover point that's degrading your sound". Not so. You can engage the bass management circuitry of the player while still sending a full-range signal to all speakers (the "Large + Sub" option). Even non-crossed over, the degradation of sound quality is readily apparent.

Conversely, the ICBM-1 allows you to set individual crossover points at 40, 60, 80, 100, and 120Hz, and offers two low-pass slopes: a "normal" 12db per octave slope or a steeper "special" THX-optimized slope of 36db per octave. For music, I use a 60Hz crossover for my rear speakers, an 80Hz crossover for my center, and I redirect all bass using the "normal" low-pass slope to my main speakers (which, obviously, are running full-range). It's a great box, deserving of every accolade it's received, but it exists solely because the SACD and DVD-A player manufacturers haven't yet bothered to do bass management right. It's stop-gap technology, and should one day be obsolete... but, for now, it's the only game in town and thank god someone addressed this problem.

Unless, of course, Denon's managed to get it right...

 

[Lewis Besze]

Unless, of course, Denon's managed to get it right...

Yes it did! I tried both the BM in the player,and the BM on the 950[analog domain just like the ICBM-1],and I found no difference in relative sound quality.

 

[Rich Malloy]

Lewis, if I was comparing the efficacy of the bass management of my SACD player vs. the bass management of the Outlaw ICBM-1, then the crossover points and low-pass slope would be important. But, as I clearly stated yet again in my previous post, this is not what I'm doing. Please disregard the ICBM from this discussion. That's not what I'm comparing.

I'm comparing the use of the Sony SACD player's bass management vs. not using the Sony SACD player's bass management. As I labored to explain yet again, I can utilize the bass management circuitry of my SACD player without redirecting any bass from any of the main channels in certain modes, so crossover points and slopes are irrelevant.

What's not irrelevant is the following: when a signal is passed through the bass management circuitry of Sony SACD players, that signal is degraded. You may not be aware of this, but those of us with Sony players are well aware of it and have discussed it many times on this forum and others. When new players come out, we invariably ask about the bass management features, whether it has adjustable crossovers and slopes, and whether it's transparent in its operation. To date, no players have provided transparent bass management for SACD (or DVD-A for that matter), and many of them degrade the SACD signal regardless of bass management (due to PCM conversion, or whatever).

So, your findings regarding the Denon are extremely encouraging. If you can hear no qualitative difference between the Denon's playback with bass management engaged vs. its playback without engaged, then that's very promising. It doesn't quite preclude the possibility that some conversion is occurring whether or not you use the bass management circuitry, and thus the signal is already degraded, but I'm assuming for now that this is not occurring with the Denon 2900 as it's playback quality is reported to be rather strong... unlike all the initial reports regarding the Pioneer which immediately pegged the SACD playback as suspect.

What's more, if you can hear no difference between the Denon's bass management and the ICBM-1's bass management (and, assuming that the signal isn't degraded from the get-go like the Pioneer), then you've found a player that at least for you renders the ICBM-1 obsolete. The "at least for you" qualification is two-fold: (1) is your system sufficiently revealing such that a difference can be heard if one exists (and I presume it is); and, more importantly, (2) does the Denon provide you the proper crossover points and slopes to match your system? (For example, I need my center crossed at 80Hz, my rears at 60Hz, and a low-pass slope no greater than approximately 20db per octave.)

I'm sorry for continuing to flog away at this, but this is no small issue. If the Denon's doing it right, that is, if it outputs a pure DSD-derived analog signal unlike some of the other universals, and if it's bass management circuitry is transparent and flexible enough for a wide variety of systems (even if not quite so flexible as the oh-so-flexible ICBM), then it's the SACD/DVD-A equivalent of sliced bread. It's the first of its kind, so far as I know.

 

[Steve_AS]

(The ICBM's) a great box, deserving of every accolade it's received, but it exists solely because the SACD and DVD-A player manufacturers haven't yet bothered to do bass management right.

It exists primarily because originally there was *no* bass managment for SACD or DVD-A in most players, and in those that had it, it wasn't implemented for all formats. Not because of a widespread perception that digital bass management was no good. (I sold my ICBM because I thought the Pioneer 45a would have BM...which it does, but it's not quite comprehensive.)

 

[Lewis Besze]

does the Denon provide you the proper crossover points and slopes to match your system? (For example, I need my center crossed at 80Hz, my rears at 60Hz, and a low-pass slope no greater than approximately 20db per octave.)

The Denon have a universal 80hz xo point and with 2nd order slope on the HP,and 4th order on the LP,the same as the "normal setting" on the ICBM.
If I were you I would keep the ICBM,and just buy any of the capable multi player[if you want to add DVD-A]and disable all of it's BM features and there you go live happily ever after.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Lewis, thanks for the review.

the sound stage on the SACD seemed pushed forward,which I didn't like.

often the soundstage seems pushed forward on hirez discs because of the extra clarity and expansion of soundstage width you get with Super Audio. But you also pick up depth (you can tell easiest by listening to the Chesky SACDs versus their redbook counterpart).

 

[RAF]

I need to find a SACD that demonstrates how good the format can be. Any one have any recommendations?

Bob,

One word: Jacintha

I believe she has 3 SACDs available, one multichannel.

Sweet.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

If the Denon's doing it right, that is, if it outputs a pure DSD-derived analog signal unlike some of the other universals, and if it's bass management circuitry is transparent and flexible enough for a wide variety of systems (even if not quite so flexible as the oh-so-flexible ICBM), then it's the SACD/DVD-A equivalent of sliced bread. It's the first of its kind, so far as I know.

I agree Rich. This would make it unique in the universal player world. I remember John Kotches had an AVS link or something where the designer of the piece spoke to the extra steps they took to make it work well in terms of BM and DSD.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

One word: Jacintha

Yes, a great disc!

But also check out the guitar work on Beck's Sea Changes...or if you like modern music the Modern Cool disc by Patricia Barber (Mobile Fidelity) is scarily realistic in places.

 

[Rich Malloy]

Thanks for the followup, Lewis -- I still want to add a DVD-A player to my system even if I keep the C555ES as my main SACD player. I was looking at the Denon 1600, but I want to make sure I'm not losing anything (other than SACD playback) by not taking the step up to the 2900.

As for others being less vocal about the bass management issues of the Sony SACD players, it's a damn shame. I spent months on this forum asking questions and no one brought it up (or I missed it somehow). I was a little steamed to discover this "dirty little secret" as I took to calling it, but it's nothing that $199 ICBM plus $150 worth of cables couldn't fix. Actually, it really wasn't as bad as that makes it sound, for I knew going in that the (single available) crossover point on the Sony players was all wrong for my system and that eventually I'd add the ICBM anyway. Still, I bring it up whenever I can so that others are aware of the issues before they make that purchase.

And I know a lot of you on this forum with C222s and C555s and XA777s and CE775s, and yet very few of you make this stuff known to your fellow forum members. I think sometimes we can become cheerleaders for "our format" and "our hardware" and downplay the problematic issues. This isn't good for any of us. Let's be open about what we've found. It's the only way these things will be addressed.

I wrote: You can engage the bass management circuitry of the player while still sending a full-range signal to all speakers (the "Large + Sub" option). Even non-crossed over, the degradation of sound quality is readily apparent...

Steve replied: This is the only crucial comaprison so far. However, I've wondered why there even exists such a setting; shouldn't it be equivalent to 'direct'?. I'd be curious to know (from Sony) what that setting is *supposed* to do, in terms of channel and frequency routing, versus a direct setting.

Of course, it's the only crucial comparison. That's why I brought it up.

What is the "5 Large setting" supposed to do? Heh heh. Funny you ask, as we've mulled that one over a few times. Actually, I think it's rather simple: the C555ES allows for level-matching between channels when you engage the bass management circuitry. Some listeners may wish to maintain a full-range signal in all channels, but adjust the levels of the center and rears in relation to the mains, and this setting allows them to do so. Also, there are two such settings "5 Large + Sub" and "5 Large No Sub", the latter of which presumably redirects any "LFE" channel signal back to the mains, as well as allowing for the adjustment of channel playback levels.

And, before you ask, yes, I did level-match all channels when making this comparison. For those familiar with the player, I had to increase the level of the center channel signal to the last "line" in the first grouping of lines and the rear channels to the first line of the second set of lines. Nonetheless, it sounded substantially inferior to a "direct" (non-bm'd, non-level matched) signal, and far inferior to "direct" signal bm'd with the Outlaw ICBM-1.

 

[Lewis Besze]

often the soundstage seems pushed forward on hirez discs because of the extra clarity and expansion of soundstage width you get with Super Audio.

Then how do you explain the same thing on the CD layer on the same disc?
I have Diana Krall's "When I look into your eyes",and I found no such obvious difference between the CD and the SACD,only the expected subtle increase in the fidelity of the vocal and instruments.



RAF,
which Jacinta would you recommend for someone who never heard her music,also who's music would she compare to the best, so I can have some idea about her style?
I think it has more to do with the new mix then anything else

 

[Brennan Hill]

I have a Yamaha RX-V800, a SVS subwoofer, and Monitor Silver 5i speakers. Will this player work for me as far as bass management for both SACD and DVD-Audio?

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Then how do you explain the same thing on the CD layer on the same disc?

The SACD and CD layer were mastered using newer technology so what you are hearing is probably just more clarity on the disc. I noticed more clarity in my redbook over my Harvest collector's CD, for instance.

I have the Diana Krall disc as well and it's good, but that's a recent recording, not from analog tapes in '73.

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

Guys!

You are really making me salivate about the MC audio formats. When I started my hunt for a new player a few months ago, I was only concerned w/ DVD-V and didn't want to do the kind of upgrades necessary to enjoy MC music. Now, I really don't know...

_Man_

 

[JoseLuisG]

Hello dear members:

This is my first post to this forum . I'm building my HT and I am very interested in the Denon 2900. I have been following this thread and also the AVS Forum thread. I have three questions that I hope you can help me:

1) What can you do to the Denon 2900 so you can program it to read region 1 and 4 dvds or multiregion? I have both region 1 and 4 DVDs and my local blockbuster only have region 4 (in Mexico). I read something in this thread but it didn't said how to.

2) Has anyone try to use DVD+RW/R dvds? I know that manual says the 2900 doesn't play this format but I also heard from many brands that also note that but the player is capable to read those +R/RW discs .

3) To the guys that buys online, where are you buying? Are you getting good deals? What happens if you buy from an unauthorized dealer online? I live in Monterrey, Mexico and I use to buy online and receive my packages in Laredo TX USA. I usually try to use online dealers with very good reputation since it is more difficult to me to return a product or validate a warranty.

Thanks and Regards

Jw

 

[Lewis Besze]

The SACD and CD layer were mastered using newer technology so what you are hearing is probably just more clarity on the disc. I noticed more clarity in my redbook over my Harvest collector's CD, for instance

I only have the original Capitol cd,but it is obvious it's not the same mix even the 2ch one,clarity or not.