My Denon DVD 2900 review [long] (1 Viewer)

[Levesque]

Lewis.

I wonder. Did you ever see the Denon DVD-3800 in action? How would you compare the PQ if so?

If not, did someone actually compare both units somewhere?

My dealer offers me 100% credit on my DVD-3800 if I want to exchange it for the 2900. I was waiting for a combi player from Denon, but would had hope for a "3900"...

Just want to know if I have to wait or not...

 

[Lewis Besze]

Sorry, I haven't seen the 3800 in action.

 

[Kevin C Brown]

Lewis- Then why does my system balance the following way?

1) Coax digital connection to my pre/pro. Avia. Speaker levels in my pre/pro set all within about +/- 1. I set my sub's volume knob such that I need a sub level of -5 dB in the pre/pro to get balanced levels every where. Avia. Dolby Digital test disc.

2) Analog passthrough from my DVD player. DVD-A test disc: Chesky Ultimate. Speaker levels in my DVD player all within +/- 1 dB. I *have* to set the sub's volume in the player to +5 or 6 dB to get balanced levels this way.

By the way, the Chesky disc *also* had DD tracks. Same-o: the 10 dB difference is there between DD (DVD-V) and DVD-A.

 

[Lewis Besze]

Kevin,
I'm not debating your set up,this thread is about the Denon 2900 which you don't own,and my evaluation of it in my system,which you haven't heard,what more is there to say?

 

[Kevin C Brown]

Get the test disc. See for yourself. Otherwise you are just guessing. From the Secret's article:

If you were to raise or lower the subwoofer level, the LFE level would rise or fall with it, tracking it at +10 dB.

Again, that 10 dB is not there for SACD and DVD-A.

Actually, I'm surprised you didn't notice the similarity in the Denon 2900 BM posts over on AVS and the Pioneer 45a post here a few months ago. Same symptoms: low bass for DVD-A and SACD. Doesn't matter Pioneer 45a, 47ai, or Denon 2900. Has to do with DD encoding vs DVD-A and SACD. Not player specific. Someone posted the 3800 was exactly the same...

 

[Lewis Besze]

Get the test disc. See for yourself. Otherwise you are just guessing

Educated guess is more likely what it is.Let me give you an example.
When I play a cd through the digital input,which utilize the Outlaw BM which was calibrated via the Avia disc[DD],but since CD's also don't boost nor have an LFE channel it should be identical to the analog input from the Denon[also playing CDs] using it's built in BM,provided I set it up "correctly"?
Well guess what it does!
Not only sound the same[bass wise] the visual LED indicators on the BFD[I see you have one or similar to it]shows a same amount of activity.
Now we can tackle the issue that my "loss" occurs only on the .1 ch and not the redirected bass which is folded together now,but as you now many labels don't utilize that channel,however I have quiet a few that does use it,and without retort to any anecdotes here let me just say,if you heard it you wouldn't think you miss anything let alone 10db!

 

[KeithH]

I would be curious to hear how the '2900 and '3800 compare in terms of video quality and DVD-Audio playback.

 

[David S]

Having a Sony SACD 222ES CD player and the 2900 both in the rack - connected to a 950 Pre/Pro, I can, with assurance, state there is no BASS Problem with the 2900 when actually listening to actual music. The thundering bass from DSOTM, the deep bass from Beck's Sea Changes, the amazing bass on Miles Davis KOB, it is ALL heard, with authority in MY system.

Now, is there a set-up "thing" when running test tones, yes there is. The bass at "0" in the set up tone thru the 2900 is pretty low. I, however, do not, nor would I conclude the player is broken cause I can't hear a "test-tone". It's ALL THERE IN THE MUSIC MAN!!!

To me, unless my 2900 starts skipping, freezing, etc, this player is a staying. The video on my Pioneer Elite 630HD is sweet.

 

[Lewis Besze]

David,
that's exactly my situation as well, and we have the same relevant equipment.
Now would you say if you have bumped the "SW" output by 10db to roughly match the rest of the channels,would the bass with real music material, be too much by any account?
Thanks.

 

[Bob Barton]

Bob have you actually played any music disks[SACD,DVD-A] on the 2900? What do you think?

Lewis,

I've just started down the path of high res music and only have a few titles to date. I've got Rumors, LA Woman and Hotel California in DVD-A. In SACD, I've only got Thelonious Monk, Straight, No Chaser.

The DVD-A are all multi channel with an LFE channel while the SACD is stereo only and has no LFE channel. All sound very detailed and I'm generally very impressed with the sound quality compared to normal CD. However, I do have a question about BM and stereo only SACDs. The stereo SACD has no LFE channel and I get no sound out of my sub using direct multi channel mode on my Elite. Is this correct? It seems to me that the BM system of the 2900 should re-direct anything below 80Hz to the LFE channel. Is this a correct assumption?

Thanks,

Bob

 

[Bob Barton]

The DVD-A are all multi channel with an LFE channel while the SACD is stereo only and has no LFE channel. All sound very detailed and I'm generally very impressed with the sound quality compared to normal CD. However, I do have a question about BM and stereo only SACDs. The stereo SACD has no LFE channel and I get no sound out of my sub using direct multi channel mode on my Elite. Is this correct? It seems to me that the BM system of the 2900 should re-direct anything below 80Hz to the LFE channel. Is this a correct assumption?

Well, the Elite has 2 channel and 8 channel selections when listening to the multi channel input. When set to two channel mode, no sound emits from the sub. Imagine that! I had the receiver set to two channel mode :b and, needless to say, no sound from the sub! Things are much better when all channels are on.

Bob

 

[Lewis Besze]

It seems to me that the BM system of the 2900 should re-direct anything below 80Hz to the LFE channel. Is this a correct assumption?

Yes it is,but looks like you figured it out what was the issue though,good job!
How's the Thelonius Monk Sacd? I was thinking to pick it up myself.

 

[Rachael B]

Lewis, I was back by one of my dealers and took a couple of DVD-A's that a great many players have had problems with, Boz Scaggs' DIG & Aaron Neville's DEVOUTION. They both played without a hitch. Best wishes!

 

[Daniel Mai]

David S,
How does sound/dynamics for SACD and CD compare between the 2900 and 222ES?

 

[CurtisC]

I'm sure this has been said but,Pink Floyd DSOTM SACD is just about the best thing I have ever heard in my life.I bought this LP when it was first released.As great as it was,it did not give me the thrill sacd did on the 2900.The 2900 has given me a new reason to listen.

 

[Rich Malloy]

Having a Sony SACD 222ES CD player and the 2900 both in the rack - connected to a 950 Pre/Pro, I can, with assurance, state there is no BASS Problem with the 2900 when actually listening to actual music. The thundering bass from DSOTM, the deep bass from Beck's Sea Changes, the amazing bass on Miles Davis KOB, it is ALL heard, with authority in MY system.

David, so it solves the bass management problems of your C222ES?

Let me be clear here: I'm not talking about the 10db bass issue; I'm talking about the lo-rez "downconversion" of the DSD signal when sent through the 222's bass management circuitry. It's the same "downconversion" that occurs on my C555ES, on the XA777ES, and on the cheaper Sony players, etc. If Denon's managed to get this right, to provide "transparent" bass management, then this is huge. And I'd like to know what they're doing differently to make this possible.

To put as fine a point on this as possible: are you saying that the degradation of sound quality caused by the 222's bass management circuitry is not apparent when the Denon 2900's bass management circuitry is engaged?

 

[David S]

"Now would you say if you have bumped the "SW" output by 10db to roughly match the rest of the channels,would the bass with real music material, be too much by any account"?

Lewis - Before the 2900 I calibrated my 950/L,R,C,SL,SR at 75db as follows: set the 950 volume control at 00, the channel trims at 00, and using the gains on mt Parasound 2205AT, calibrated to 75db. The sub - same 00 channel trim on the 950, sub low pass filter at 120, and increased volume control on sub to calibrate as close to 75db as I could get it.

With the 2900, no changes to any of the 5 channels. For the sub, 2 things. One - stuck in DSOTM and simply listened. Did not hear ANY lack of bass at all, and this was true with the other SACD's I listened to (Beck, Miles Davis, Willie Nelson, Charles Mingus). By bumping the sub up 10dd, I think in my system that would be too bass heavy for music listening. I will try it later (Saturday).

Two - My "tech" skills may be limited here - my 950's crossover switch is set to on - hence is this why I hear the same. (Did not try it off, as I was digging the sound as is)


How does sound/dynamics for SACD and CD compare between the 2900 and 222ES?

As I cannot have them both hooked up at the same time (yet:>), going from memory, I don't believe either player beasts the other in any significant way. Both are very dynamic/and provide great soudstaging on the better recorded SACD's and CD's. For me, the 222 adds the convenience of the changer (for my outdoor/zone 2 listening), and the 2900 adds the DVD Audio and great video (first progressive scan player I've owned). In other words, the 2900 would be a solid choice if your adding a new SACD player to your system, however if you just need it for music, the 222ES can be had (if you find one) much cheaper.

"the DSD signal when sent through the 222's bass management circuitry. It's the same "downconversion" that occurs on my C555ES, on the XA777ES, and on the cheaper Sony players, etc. If Denon's managed to get this right, to provide "transparent" bass management, then this is huge. And I'd like to know what they're doing differently to make this possible.

To put as fine a point on this as possible: are you saying that the degradation of sound quality caused by the 222's bass management circuitry is not apparent when the Denon 2900's bass management circuitry is engaged?"

Rich - I'm by no means an expert here (in fact its usually my ears telling me whats good/bad), hence help me out and I will do some listening. Specifically, how should the 2900 be set up and how should my 950 be set up to ensure I'm using the BM circuity in the 2900? Thanks

 

[Rich Malloy]

David, I don't have the Denon, so I'm not sure. I do have a C555ES which (I believe) has the exact same bass management circuitry as your C222ES.

But when I engage it (that is when I select any setting other than the "Multichannel Direct" or "Two Channel Direct" settings, both of which bypass the bass management circuitry altogether), there is a noticeable and rather steep dropoff in sound quality. There's also a drop in level output, but even carefully adjusting for this with an SPL meter does not change the result: the bass management on the C555ES (and presumably your C222ES) degrades the audio signal.

Even my wife noticed it. Easily. This is no golden-ears phenomenon, I can assure you, and my system is only mid-fi, at best, not uber-revealing (Sony C555ES -> Outlaw 1050 receiver -> Swans Diva speakers). It sounded far better to go without bass management altogether (until I added an Outlaw ICBM-1 into the system).

This has been no small issue--frankly, I thought it was the "dirty little secret" of SACD when I first bought my player, was shocked at the "veil" the bass management circuitry pulled down over the sound, and then had it confirmed, post-purchase, on this forum. The ICBM-1 fixed it, but for $199. Since then, I've made a point of this in every thread in which bass management comes up. My impressions are invariably confirmed; no one ever denies "the problem"; no one ever gets terribly worked up about it either. I think it's a damn shame, and I wonder if some folks ever take the time to listen to what the bass management circuitry is doing to the purity of the DSD-derived signal.

So, if Denon has actually succeeded in creating bass management for SACD that is transparent (at least comparable to the Outlaw ICBM-1, which sounds transparent to my ears), then I believe they've succeeded where all others have thusfar failed.

And I'd like to know how they did it.

 

[William_Morr]

David S.

I believe if you set up the 2900 with the filter on, speakers to small and sub to yes; then, on the 950, analog bass management switch to off; you will have the 2900's bass management covering all bass management duties. There will be a small amount of bass directed (doubled) to the subwoofer within the 950 but it'll be limited to the sub 80Hz material that the 2900 outputs to the five main speakers subject to its crossover slope.

This is my first SACD player so I'll be interested to hear your observations regarding the BM interfering with the fidelity of the SACD compared to the Sony.

 

[ManW_TheUncool]

Rich,

I'm curious, but do you know what resolution DSD->PCM conversion is used in the various players that seriously degrade SACD playback when using BM? I don't believe I've heard anything bad (or all that positive either) said about the Philips 963sa's processing, which is "rumored" to use 26-bit/354Khz PCM, but then again, I do suspect what you do about people taking care to compare the difference.

Also, I've seen a few posts over in that huge long thread in AVSForum claiming that the Philips offers time alignment and level settings, but also saw a couple other posts elsewhere that claims no such support. I actually asked for clarification from the latter to address the positive claims, but never got a response on it either.

Gotta love all the mixed info on the net, no?

_Man_