My continuing EQ adventure - EFT users should read

Discussion in 'Home Theater Projects' started by Kincade, Jun 21, 2004.

  1. Kincade

    Kincade Second Unit

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    Some of you have read my previous thread here:

    http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htfo...hreadid=201033

    I've been trying to EQ my subwoofer, and attempting to do a decent job of it.

    I first downloaded the NCH tone generator, http://www.nch.com.au/tonegen/ , created 1/12 octave tones, saved them to a CD, and use that to EQ. I then downloaded the PEQ excel worksheet, http://www.pvconsultants.com/audio/eq/peq.htm , which is setup for 1/12 octave tones, has the ratshack correction factor built into it already, and appears to be set up to work WITH the BFD.

    Problem is, nomatter what measurement level I used, the peaks of the graph would be above the visible portion. Worked with it for about 5 hours, decided to bag it.

    Next up, ETF. Downloaded ETF from http://www.acoustisoft.com ; Bought a soundblaster MP3 soundcard, and got everything hooked up. Adjusted levels, great to go.

    Did the first sweep, and voila! It worked well. Here's where it gets fun. I can't figure out whether to use the "low frequency response" graph or the "logarythmic response" graph; I can't seem to get decent resolution on the "low response" graph, but "logarythmic response" will not let me see below 40- 80 hz at the maximum allowed gate time, 200ms with anything other than 1/2 octave resolution. Went through this for about 9 hours yesterday, and bagged it.

    So, I call acoustisoft today and spoke to Doug. He first tells me to go through the demo room, which I have done twice. He tells me it takes some people a few times through to understand it.[​IMG]

    I explain to him that I'm just trying to EQ sub 100 HZ material, and that i've already determined placement. I just need to know which graph to look at, and how to get decent resolution on that graph. He says that he is not able to display a decent resolution on the logarythmic graph at the low frequencies without going above a 200ms gate time, which would require the software to be rewritten. Ok, that doesn't appear to be an option then.

    He tells me that he is writing a software upgrade that will allow the software to be used w/ a parametric EQ to simulate filters, etc. This will be free to paid users of the program. Expect sometime in the next few months.

    BUT - and here is the clincher - he says that without the PSD/Sweep upgrade ($75 in addition to the $150 cost of the software), the software does not reliably display sub 50-60 hz material. He insists this is the case, and said it's not worth doing without this upgrade.

    He then tells me to just figure out placement of the sub, wait for his software, and "i'm really busy today, and don't really have time to explain this. Go through the demo room again and it'll click for you" [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    SO, to recap.

    -ETF will not allow you to reliably EQ your sub in below 50 hz material without paying for the program, $150, and paying for the PSD/Sweep upgrade, $75, in addition to cables, RS meter, and an external soundcard (if you don't have a full duplex card, which I do not).

    -If you want to view logarythmic response in sub frequencies in a greater resolution than 1/2 octave, you are SOL until someone rewrites the software to accept a greater gate time than 200ms. With this nice deficiency, it should be nice to figure out how to effectively use filters to address peaks when you can't even view it in the context of how the filters are applied (1/6, 1/12 octave, etc).

    If someone here has different view than the author of the program, I'd love to hear it. As it stands, from the horses mouth, we cannot use this progam to EQ our subs. I know I've read in this forum that some have done it, but from the authors own mouth, it cannot be done without buying an upgrade, and even then, you cannot view it in a logarythmic scale.

    SO, back to square one. I should have listened to Wayne P. and just used the 1/6 octave tones/Snapbug worksheet. After wasting a whole weekend of screwing around with a bunch of software that won't work, I'm back at doing the manual method again.

    [​IMG]
     
  2. Kincade

    Kincade Second Unit

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    Some of you have read my previous thread here:

    http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htfo...hreadid=201033

    I've been trying to EQ my subwoofer, and attempting to do a decent job of it.

    I first downloaded the NCH tone generator, http://www.nch.com.au/tonegen/ , created 1/12 octave tones, saved them to a CD, and use that to EQ. I then downloaded the PEQ excel worksheet, http://www.pvconsultants.com/audio/eq/peq.htm , which is setup for 1/12 octave tones, has the ratshack correction factor built into it already, and appears to be set up to work WITH the BFD.

    Problem is, nomatter what measurement level I used, the peaks of the graph would be above the visible portion. Worked with it for about 5 hours, decided to bag it.

    Next up, ETF. Downloaded ETF from http://www.acoustisoft.com ; Bought a soundblaster MP3 soundcard, and got everything hooked up. Adjusted levels, great to go.

    Did the first sweep, and voila! It worked well. Here's where it gets fun. I can't figure out whether to use the "low frequency response" graph or the "logarythmic response" graph; I can't seem to get decent resolution on the "low response" graph, but "logarythmic response" will not let me see below 40- 80 hz at the maximum allowed gate time, 200ms with anything other than 1/2 octave resolution. Went through this for about 9 hours yesterday, and bagged it.

    So, I call acoustisoft today and spoke to Doug. He first tells me to go through the demo room, which I have done twice. He tells me it takes some people a few times through to understand it.[​IMG]

    I explain to him that I'm just trying to EQ sub 100 HZ material, and that i've already determined placement. I just need to know which graph to look at, and how to get decent resolution on that graph. He says that he is not able to display a decent resolution on the logarythmic graph at the low frequencies without going above a 200ms gate time, which would require the software to be rewritten. Ok, that doesn't appear to be an option then.

    He tells me that he is writing a software upgrade that will allow the software to be used w/ a parametric EQ to simulate filters, etc. This will be free to paid users of the program. Expect sometime in the next few months.

    BUT - and here is the clincher - he says that without the PSD/Sweep upgrade ($75 in addition to the $150 cost of the software), the software does not reliably display sub 50-60 hz material. He insists this is the case, and said it's not worth doing without this upgrade.

    He then tells me to just figure out placement of the sub, wait for his software, and "i'm really busy today, and don't really have time to explain this. Go through the demo room again and it'll click for you" [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    SO, to recap.

    -ETF will not allow you to reliably EQ your sub in below 50 hz material without paying for the program, $150, and paying for the PSD/Sweep upgrade, $75, in addition to cables, RS meter, and an external soundcard (if you don't have a full duplex card, which I do not).

    -If you want to view logarythmic response in sub frequencies in a greater resolution than 1/2 octave, you are SOL until someone rewrites the software to accept a greater gate time than 200ms. With this nice deficiency, it should be nice to figure out how to effectively use filters to address peaks when you can't even view it in the context of how the filters are applied (1/6, 1/12 octave, etc).

    If someone here has different view than the author of the program, I'd love to hear it. As it stands, from the horses mouth, we cannot use this progam to EQ our subs. I know I've read in this forum that some have done it, but from the authors own mouth, it cannot be done without buying an upgrade, and even then, you cannot view it in a logarythmic scale.

    SO, back to square one. I should have listened to Wayne P. and just used the 1/6 octave tones/Snapbug worksheet. After wasting a whole weekend of screwing around with a bunch of software that won't work, I'm back at doing the manual method again.

    [​IMG]
     
  3. Brian_J

    Brian_J Second Unit

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    I have learned through a lot of lost time not to pay a lot of attention to ETF results. I could never get consistent results with this program. For one thing, it does not like my amp and preamp combo.

    I ended up with True Audio after trying ETF and several other programs.

    Brian
     
  4. Brian_J

    Brian_J Second Unit

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    I have learned through a lot of lost time not to pay a lot of attention to ETF results. I could never get consistent results with this program. For one thing, it does not like my amp and preamp combo.

    I ended up with True Audio after trying ETF and several other programs.

    Brian
     
  5. Kincade

    Kincade Second Unit

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    Yeah - I know the feeling about lost time. [​IMG] Oh well, a lesson learned I guess.

    True Audio - do you have a website for that?
     
  6. Kincade

    Kincade Second Unit

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    Yeah - I know the feeling about lost time. [​IMG] Oh well, a lesson learned I guess.

    True Audio - do you have a website for that?
     
  7. Wayne A. Pflughaupt

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    Sorry to hear about your woes, Kincade. [​IMG]

    Well, the 1/12-octave tones will certainly be helpful. You’d have to plot manually on say, graph paper, but it would give twice the resolution. Can’t hurt, since you already have them.

    I’ll have to say this in ETF’s defense – it would be pretty silly for him to give out a highly proficient “free for 10 days (or however many)” version of the software. No one would have any incentive to buy the thing if that were the case.

    Your less-than-optimal experiences, aside, EFT appears to be an excellent product for the money. I paid $500 for my AudioControl RTA back in ’96, and it’s only 1/3-octave. Assuming you already have the computer, you can get ETF with all the goodies for way less.

    Regards,
    Wayne A. Pflughaupt
     
  8. Wayne A. Pflughaupt

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    Sorry to hear about your woes, Kincade. [​IMG]

    Well, the 1/12-octave tones will certainly be helpful. You’d have to plot manually on say, graph paper, but it would give twice the resolution. Can’t hurt, since you already have them.

    I’ll have to say this in ETF’s defense – it would be pretty silly for him to give out a highly proficient “free for 10 days (or however many)” version of the software. No one would have any incentive to buy the thing if that were the case.

    Your less-than-optimal experiences, aside, EFT appears to be an excellent product for the money. I paid $500 for my AudioControl RTA back in ’96, and it’s only 1/3-octave. Assuming you already have the computer, you can get ETF with all the goodies for way less.

    Regards,
    Wayne A. Pflughaupt
     
  9. Kincade

    Kincade Second Unit

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    Wayne,

    I *think* i have the correct 1/12 octave tones - I took the values from that worksheet. I'm not entirely sure how to figure out 1/12 octave tones on my own. Any tips?

    I don't have a gripe about the demo not being fully functional - it's that even if I buy the program and add on, and get the non-functional mixer to work (no, it doesn't work w/ the MP3 soundcard), I still can't do it the way I need to; which is plot a decent resolution on a logarythmic scale. Even after all that, he still suggests to buy his mic and preamp. So $150 + $75 + $250 = $475, before you even have to worry about your own hardware. If you take his suggestion, you need to buy the "psycho-analysis package" too, another $75, which supposedly simulates the way your mind hears the sound (incorporates a room and speaker curve into it).

    If I thought I could pay $225 and use this program to EQ my room quickly, I'd do it in a second. The loop/oneshot is really a massive timesaver. But at this point, I can't even see which graph I could use to do that. It might measure it well, but unless the deficiencies in the program are addressed, I don't suspect one could use it to EQ your low regions with any degree of success.

    Above 100hz might be a different story - but I don't need it for that.
     
  10. Kincade

    Kincade Second Unit

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    Wayne,

    I *think* i have the correct 1/12 octave tones - I took the values from that worksheet. I'm not entirely sure how to figure out 1/12 octave tones on my own. Any tips?

    I don't have a gripe about the demo not being fully functional - it's that even if I buy the program and add on, and get the non-functional mixer to work (no, it doesn't work w/ the MP3 soundcard), I still can't do it the way I need to; which is plot a decent resolution on a logarythmic scale. Even after all that, he still suggests to buy his mic and preamp. So $150 + $75 + $250 = $475, before you even have to worry about your own hardware. If you take his suggestion, you need to buy the "psycho-analysis package" too, another $75, which supposedly simulates the way your mind hears the sound (incorporates a room and speaker curve into it).

    If I thought I could pay $225 and use this program to EQ my room quickly, I'd do it in a second. The loop/oneshot is really a massive timesaver. But at this point, I can't even see which graph I could use to do that. It might measure it well, but unless the deficiencies in the program are addressed, I don't suspect one could use it to EQ your low regions with any degree of success.

    Above 100hz might be a different story - but I don't need it for that.
     
  11. Michael R Price

    Michael R Price Screenwriter

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    Right... I found that to get something really useful you have to spend money. I got LspCAD for $140 and built a little microphone that does the trick. [​IMG]
     
  12. Michael R Price

    Michael R Price Screenwriter

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    Right... I found that to get something really useful you have to spend money. I got LspCAD for $140 and built a little microphone that does the trick. [​IMG]
     
  13. ThomasW

    ThomasW Cinematographer

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    Let's see if I understand. You're mad because you spent time evaluating a free demo program and found out that gated energy/time measurements are complicated. And that you couldn't get what you wanted from the basic ETF package that you didn't buy?

    BTW you don't need the ETF mic and mic pre-amp, you can use a Behringer ECM 8000 $50 and a Behringer 802 mixer $60 or a RS meter.

    If you want a lower cost MLS program checkout WinMLS $40 to buy, they offer a free 30 day trial. They have a forum where you can get free assistance and support
     
  14. ThomasW

    ThomasW Cinematographer

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    Let's see if I understand. You're mad because you spent time evaluating a free demo program and found out that gated energy/time measurements are complicated. And that you couldn't get what you wanted from the basic ETF package that you didn't buy?

    BTW you don't need the ETF mic and mic pre-amp, you can use a Behringer ECM 8000 $50 and a Behringer 802 mixer $60 or a RS meter.

    If you want a lower cost MLS program checkout WinMLS $40 to buy, they offer a free 30 day trial. They have a forum where you can get free assistance and support
     
  15. Kincade

    Kincade Second Unit

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    Thanks, I'll check it out. But to reiterate and be perfectly clear, as I said above, I don't really care about spending the $225, as long as it will work. But with the limitations of the program, it doesn't appear to me that it can be done as of this time. When the author tells me to wait to try using this to EQ lower regions until he releases the next version, that tells me that this program is not capable of doing an accurate sub 100-hz response curve.

    I'm sorry if I sound snappy. But for you to jump all over my case without even reading throught the posts is at best, not helpful. I've learned a lot from your posts on this board, and I'm sure that i'm years behind your knowledge of home-theater-related-topics. But damn, I never read a rule about never posting if a particular product of interest that many of us use is frustrating us.
     
  16. Kincade

    Kincade Second Unit

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    Thanks, I'll check it out. But to reiterate and be perfectly clear, as I said above, I don't really care about spending the $225, as long as it will work. But with the limitations of the program, it doesn't appear to me that it can be done as of this time. When the author tells me to wait to try using this to EQ lower regions until he releases the next version, that tells me that this program is not capable of doing an accurate sub 100-hz response curve.

    I'm sorry if I sound snappy. But for you to jump all over my case without even reading throught the posts is at best, not helpful. I've learned a lot from your posts on this board, and I'm sure that i'm years behind your knowledge of home-theater-related-topics. But damn, I never read a rule about never posting if a particular product of interest that many of us use is frustrating us.
     
  17. ThomasW

    ThomasW Cinematographer

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    I did read you entire post.

    And as a user of ETF for about 5yrs, I was going to assist you. But after that rant you're on your own.
     
  18. ThomasW

    ThomasW Cinematographer

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    I did read you entire post.

    And as a user of ETF for about 5yrs, I was going to assist you. But after that rant you're on your own.
     
  19. Kincade

    Kincade Second Unit

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    Thomas,

    With all due respect, this didn't sound like you were trying to help me:



    I'm not sure how the correct way to respond to that would have been, other than to respond and explain myself again; you obviously viewed me as someone who wants everything for free, which I can assure you is not the case.

    Having said that, if I took it wrong I apologize; it appeared to me as merely a slam. I'm absolutely trying to learn how to use ETF, and i'm at the end of my frustration limit with this. As a programmer in my former life, I can say without a doubt that it's definitely not oriented towards a new user. I'm particularly frustrated because I usually pick this stuff up very quickly, and this is definitely the exception to the rule.

    In any case, I'm sorry I offended you.

    I think I need to put it down for a few days and just enjoy my new sub. [​IMG]
     
  20. Kincade

    Kincade Second Unit

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    Thomas,

    With all due respect, this didn't sound like you were trying to help me:



    I'm not sure how the correct way to respond to that would have been, other than to respond and explain myself again; you obviously viewed me as someone who wants everything for free, which I can assure you is not the case.

    Having said that, if I took it wrong I apologize; it appeared to me as merely a slam. I'm absolutely trying to learn how to use ETF, and i'm at the end of my frustration limit with this. As a programmer in my former life, I can say without a doubt that it's definitely not oriented towards a new user. I'm particularly frustrated because I usually pick this stuff up very quickly, and this is definitely the exception to the rule.

    In any case, I'm sorry I offended you.

    I think I need to put it down for a few days and just enjoy my new sub. [​IMG]
     

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