My 2 cents worth on “Brothers Grimm” (1 Viewer)

[haineshisway]

Not only do I seriously doubt there are 10,000 people out there who would cough up $100, I seriously doubt Wonderful World Of The Brothers Grimm would sell 10,000 copies!

They wouldn't sell 3000 copies. This isn't brain surgery.

 

[Interdimensional]

Was it the process that was the interest or the film that was of interest. I would suppose it was the process. In the US it was released before HTWWW, so it was the first Cinerama film to tell a story and had well known actors. That to me was what sold tickets. If it was as accepted as HTWWW was, then the gross for Grimm should be much higher

There's never any clear way to know just what it is about a film that draws the crowds. Format novelty? Production quality? Subject matter? Star power? Special effects? It's always going to be a combination of factors. My guess would be that there may have been a ceiling to the amount of people willing to see that kind of fantasy at that point in time, and they may have also limited their audience with scenes like the Puppetoon sequence creating a perception that this was a movie primarily for children. (of course it's a brilliant sequence and one of the highlights of the movie)

I don't think it's fair to hold up a breakout success like HTWWW for comparison. Wonderful World doesn't become an unpopular film just because it isn't on that level. How the West Was Won with its unprecedented lineup of A-listers was an event film. The majority of features cannot be expected to do anywhere close to that level of business.

There is no reason to believe that Warner would not work on Grimm if it wasn't such a costly endeavour. So if you take out the question of money there is no holdup.

Yes it was a successful movie at the time but as has been said a big part of that was certainly the Cinerama process.
And even if it was not the Cinerama process that increased the box office revenue we can safely say that the Brothers Grimm are not exactly timeless material that is of great interest for a modern audience nor can that be said for the "special effects" scenes of the movie.

And I am saying that as somebody who never saw the movie except for a few snipplets and I would LOVE to finally be able to see it in a proper fashion on Blu-ray or even UHD - the resolution is certainly there.

The expense of the restoration is dependent on the involvement of WB. If the restoration could be conducted for a reasonable figure outside of WB, they still wouldn't allow it to happen. If WB undertook a film in this condition, the restoration would be budgeted at a figure that would not recoup its costs. Others have found ways to restore comparable films at budgets appropriate to demand, and with results that were more than acceptable. It is WB policy that makes it financially unfeasible.

Incidentally, I always thought the stories of the Brothers Grimm were the very definition of timeless. Although the fact that a movie reflects the era in which it was made does not necessarily detract from its entertainment value. The special effects of the movie are from that period where special effects were not so ubiquitous, and actually were something special. Look at the continuing popularity of the work of Harryhausen. There's a handcrafted tactile quality to this stuff that is a lost art, and one develops an appreciation for what was achieved within the technological limitations of the day. It's not about photorealism. It's a charming film with some beautiful and magical passages, and I hope you get to see it at some point.

 

[Mike Frezon]

You all can keep posting about the thread (rather than the topic) and I'll just keep deleting the posts. (More posts have just been deleted.)

THAT...is what's tiresome. And besides the post deletions, there will be other penalties to follow.

And as a reminder, publicly questioning a moderator's actions is also against our rules. Rule 18. There's a pretty severe penalty for that, too. Just sayin'.

If you don't want to post about the topic of this thread, don't post.

 

[OliverK]

They wouldn't sell 3000 copies. This isn't brain surgery.

Hate to aks you this but it is on topic so in case you still read this:

Do you have some sales number for other Cinerama titles except of course HTWWW that let you make this very definite statement?
I understand that you may not be at liberty to talk exact numbers but I always wondered if these titles were even getting to 4 digit sales numbers.

For Grimm I did not really think about it much as with this being a Warner title and its condition being so probematic not even 30000 copies would be nearly enough to recover the costs of a Warner style restoration.

 

[RolandL]

I have mentioned this before, but there is a group called "Friends of the Brothers Grimm" who started a petition two years or so ago and amassed a few hundred signatures in hopes of persuading WB to restore WWOTBG. I think that petition is still on Facebook, so check it out and sign up!!

Almost 20,000 have signed this petition asking LG to add 3D to one of their TV models in the future. LG is not interested. A few hundred is not going to convince WB.

 

[William Moore]

You all can keep posting about the thread (rather than the topic) and I'll just keep deleting the posts. (More posts have just been deleted.)

THAT...is what's tiresome. And besides the post deletions, there will be other penalties to follow.

And as a reminder, publicly questioning a moderator's actions is also against our rules. Rule 18. There's a pretty severe penalty for that, too. Just sayin'.

If you don't want to post about the topic of this thread, don't post.

Mike: I'm a little confused as to which recent post your "scolding" was directed. (Hopefully NOT #202)

 

[William Moore]

Almost 20,000 have signed this petition asking LG to add 3D to one of their TV models in the future. LG is not interested. A few hundred is not going to convince WB.

Well, maybe not but if more signers can be "rounded up" who knows what could happen. Personally, I'm not ready to give up just yet!

 

[Dan_Shane]

Well, maybe not but if more signers can be "rounded up" who knows what could happen. Personally, I'm not ready to give up just yet!

Never give up hoping. (I don't.) Just don't expect everybody else to share your optimism in the face of financial reality.

If I had my way all of my childhood favorites (and TWWOTBG definitely is on that list) would be in my library, and I would contribute time and funds to their restoration. But I'm just one of a handful of fans that feel that way. WHV isn't a charity, and this charming film isn't CITIZEN KANE. I will quietly hope for a miracle.

 

[Tommy R]

At the risk of setting off another shit storm in this thread I have another question regarding the feasibility of using other elements like film prints to bring it to DVD/Blu-ray. Now I know it's been said Warner isn't willing to do that because of their own policy on quality. But if they had a change of heart, would THAT route be super expensive too? Or would that be a pretty doable thing?

Sorry if this is one of the things addressed in this thread already, but I've been through the whole thread twice already and still trying to think different hypotheticals. I remember back in the early days of DVD, early 00's, there were all kinds of things people would say on here "would never happen" to various degrees of certainty, but then things would seem to change and these releases would eventually come to pass, even if it was several years after the fact of very certain doom saying.

Again, not trying to beat a dead horse, just trying to look at this at all the angles and hypotheticals. I DO know that it's been said that Warner wouldn't release a sub-quality product, but i was just wondering if the cost of this way to release it would be too expensive as well. I haven't seen any reference to that. Again, sorry, I'm not trying to tick anyone off.

 

[Mike Frezon]

Mike: I'm a little confused as to which recent post your "scolding" was directed. (Hopefully NOT #202)

William: All the posts that have been tacked onto the thread that were not on-topic have been deleted.

I realize it gets confusing and it's why we wish members would understand what we are trying to accomplish here and would cooperate.

And once they are removed and I make a post asking for the rules to be followed, there is a disconnect as there is no visible reminder about the offending posts which I am referencing.

And now, here we are again with a couple more posts that are not on the topic of "Brothers Grimm." <sigh>

 

[Josh Steinberg]

At the risk of setting off another shit storm in this thread I have another question regarding the feasibility of using other elements like film prints to bring it to DVD/Blu-ray. Now I know it's been said Warner isn't willing to do that because of their own policy on quality. But if they had a change of heart, would THAT route be super expensive too? Or would that be a pretty doable thing?

Hi Tommy, please see Dave Strohmaier's post from earlier in this thread:
https://www.hometheaterforum.com/co...-worth-on-brothers-grimm.358328/#post-4637268

He addresses how he would restore the film if he was given the greenlight to do so on a smaller budget based on his successes with his recent Windjammer restoration project.

 

[RichMurphy]

Forgive me if this has been addressed before, but might The Film Foundation (Martin Scorsese's group) be interested in helping support the restoration of TWWOTBG? In 2013, it helped fund the restoration of REBEL WITHOUT A CAUSE - another Warner Bros. property.

https://www.warnermediagroup.com/blog/posts/20131105-restoring-with-a-cause

 

[williammoore]

At the risk of setting off another shit storm in this thread I have another question regarding the feasibility of using other elements like film prints to bring it to DVD/Blu-ray. Now I know it's been said Warner isn't willing to do that because of their own policy on quality. But if they had a change of heart, would THAT route be super expensive too? Or would that be a pretty doable thing?

Sorry if this is one of the things addressed in this thread already, but I've been through the whole thread twice already and still trying to think different hypotheticals. I remember back in the early days of DVD, early 00's, there were all kinds of things people would say on here "would never happen" to various degrees of certainty, but then things would seem to change and these releases would eventually come to pass, even if it was several years after the fact of very certain doom saying.

Again, not trying to beat a dead horse, just trying to look at this at all the angles and hypotheticals. I DO know that it's been said that Warner wouldn't release a sub-quality product, but i was just wondering if the cost of this way to release it would be too expensive as well. I haven't seen any reference to that. Again, sorry, I'm not trying to tick anyone off.

Even a decent anamorphic release on DVD would be better than nothing, if they went back to the original 3-panel composite which was used for the LD release and did some improvements on that. Now that wouldn't cost an arm and a leg, would it? And, while I'm at it, just look at all the crap which has been released over the years on DVD, and in some cases BD. I'm sure those movies didn't sell thousands of copies either!

 

[Dan_Shane]

Even a decent anamorphic release on DVD would be better than nothing, if they went back to the original 3-panel composite which was used for the LD release and did some improvements on that. Now that wouldn't cost an arm and a leg, would it?

Please understand that what you're suggesting (while admirable and certainly technically feasible) does not fit the model of how WHV handles their video properties. They have established a rule of "the best or nothing," and a little thought should probably explain why.

In the past WAC has released a title or two not in pristine condition and suffered the slings and arrows that goes with putting out product that fans hope to own in big-screen-worthy quality. Look what happened with Olive Film and their HALLELUJAH TRAIL Blu-ray. Not many buyers (read "NOBODY!) accepted Olive's claim that they were releasing an image based on the best available elements. As much as I like the movie I know I will never watch my disc again. Warner surely doesn't want to sell a title like that; their reputation is too valuable.

I burned a DVD from my TWWOTBG laser-disc, but it compares so poorly to what we expect today that I've never watched it on a screen larger than a 30" 4:3 CRT.

So those who insist on "owning" a BROTHERS GRIMM video at home will do best to record a TCM showing and make do with that while we wait on the train that is probably never coming unless video technology gets so advanced and inexpensive that a new print can be made from whole cloth.

 

[Tommy R]

So those who insist on "owning" a BROTHERS GRIMM video at home will do best to record a TCM showing and make do with that while we wait on the train that is probably never coming unless video technology gets so advanced and inexpensive that a new print can be made from whole cloth.

This is exactly what I intend on doing. I'd have to double check, but I think it's airing the first week of October.

 

[Thomas T]

In the past WAC has released a title or two not in pristine condition and suffered the slings and arrows that goes with putting out product that fans hope to own in big-screen-worthy quality. Look what happened with Olive Film and their HALLELUJAH TRAIL Blu-ray. Not many buyers (read "NOBODY!) accepted Olive's claim that they were releasing an image based on the best available elements. As much as I like the movie I know I will never watch my disc again. Warner surely doesn't want to sell a title like that; their reputation is too valuable.

Quite right! While there are are small minority (myself among them) of the "better something than nothing at all" school, Hell hath no fury than a certain segment when a blu ray is released in less than pristine condition. These are the same people angry with Warners for "withholding" Around The World In 80 Days, Raintree County, Ryan's Daughter and High Society when the elements are simply not there. Warners knows this and won't release them until they are ready! Crikey, even Warners superb restoration of Seven Brides For Seven Brothers got taken to task because the dancing feet sounds were "off". Is The Hallelujah Trail blu ray acceptable by 2018 standards? No, it is not. But you know what? I'm happy to have it on blu ray because unless a miracle occurs, this is the best it's going to get. It was a flop at the box office, got poor reviews and very few people actually like it. Which rapidly sends it to the bottom of the restoration pile. I'm surprised Olive bothered at all.

 

[Dan_Shane]

These are the same people angry with Warners for "withholding" Around The World In 80 Days, Raintree County, Ryan's Daughter and High Society when the elements are simply not there. Warners knows this and won't release them until they are ready!

Ryan's Daughter might not belong on that list. There are reports of people having seen a digital version of the show that is close to perfection, and rumors persist that a Blu-ray could be forthcoming. I'm always skeptical of these forecasts, but I will say that what I streamed on Warner Archive was quite lovely.

 

[William Moore]

Please understand that what you're suggesting (while admirable and certainly technically feasible) does not fit the model of how WHV handles their video properties. They have established a rule of "the best or nothing," and a little thought should probably explain why.

In the past WAC has released a title or two not in pristine condition and suffered the slings and arrows that goes with putting out product that fans hope to own in big-screen-worthy quality. Look what happened with Olive Film and their HALLELUJAH TRAIL Blu-ray. Not many buyers (read "NOBODY!) accepted Olive's claim that they were releasing an image based on the best available elements. As much as I like the movie I know I will never watch my disc again. Warner surely doesn't want to sell a title like that; their reputation is too valuable.

I burned a DVD from my TWWOTBG laser-disc, but it compares so poorly to what we expect today that I've never watched it on a screen larger than a 30" 4:3 CRT.

So those who insist on "owning" a BROTHERS GRIMM video at home will do best to record a TCM showing and make do with that while we wait on the train that is probably never coming unless video technology gets so advanced and inexpensive that a new print can be made from whole cloth.

First of all, IMHO not every movie in one's collection has to be a "bit perfect" copy of the original. In fact, I still watch a number of DVDs which I have determined are good enough to enjoy without having to purchase another copy in "the next great format to come along." There's certainly nothing wrong with a well-mastered anamorphically-produced DVD. I own the original LD release of "Brothers Grimm, " which I view from time to time and recently I located a Japanese release of this film on LD, which supposedly is the same version TCM plays sans the Japanese subtitles. I paid nearly $150 for this and when I played it back, I was very disappointed. Despite the fact that it had the missing footage from the prologue, and somewhat better color, I felt the sound wasn't as good as the US release and it seemed like the image was "grainer" as well. Also, the "scope" image wasn't as tall. Thankfully, the seller allowed me to return it for a partial refund. It may be that TCM adds some processing which improves the presentation but I can't get that channel and I don't have a DVR. So, I'll be "stuck" with my LD but the quality isn't so bad that it ruins the viewing experience for me of this wonderful Cinerama presentation.

 

[Allansfirebird]

First of all, IMHO not every movie in one's collection has to be a "bit perfect" copy of the original. In fact, I still watch a number of DVDs which I have determined are good enough to enjoy without having to purchase another copy in "the next great format to come along." There's certainly nothing wrong with a well-mastered anamorphically-produced DVD.

That's all well and good for you, but - as it's been said multiple times - it's simply not Warner Home Video's policy on the matter. Never will be.

 

[Bob Furmanek]

What about the Bowery Boys series where a number of titles were released on the Warner Archive sets from subpar 16mm elements?