Music Replacement (1 Viewer)

[MarkHastings]

I totally agree with James Reader - I even mentioned (in the "My Name is Earl" thread) that if I were a TV producer, I'd be more concerned about my show BEING on TV and not worried about DVD sales. If a show flops on TV, then you're REALLY screwed as far as DVD sales go.

If an episode of "My Name is Earl" uses a song that is 'perfect' for the moment (which most songs are), then I'd rather have the producer put that song into the episode and not worry about the licensing issues for the possibility of a DVD release, rather than to have them seek a cheaper/less effective song because they want to make sure they can license it for DVD release.

As much as we'd like to think that producers should be considering music licenses for DVD sales, it's just not always the wisest decision to make. It's easy to sit back and think we have the answers (not being producers), but in the TV world, that kind of thinking may end you up with a lost job

 

[John Sullmeyer]

I have an interesting question that I was discussing with a coworker the other day.

Would it be preferable to have the DVD and the scene without any music AT ALL rather than have some cheezy elevator music or equivalent replacement?

I'm thinking I'd rather not have any music on the scenes as strange as that sounds.

 

[MarkHastings]

Speaking of music rights (a bit off topic), but I saw a commercial for South Park (on Comedy Central)....It was some kind of South Park promotion and they were using clips from old shows. They showed the clip from "F'ed in the A" where the "Hip Hop" kids bust out their moves, then Stan turns on his stereo and does his line dancing.

The original episode (as well as the DVD) play the song "Achy Breaky Heart", but they replaced it in the commercial with a cheesy knock off.

What is that all about? I assume there are new music rights issues when using clips for promotions? I forget exactly what the spot was for so I can't comment on what it was used for, but still????

 

[Ethan Riley]

Reading through this thread I'd have to come to the conclusion that a few people are way too anal about the stupid background music in shows. I don't give a damn about the stupid pop crap songs that were played in the background. I only care about the shows themselves.

 

[Anthony Hom]

That 70's Show has also done some music replacements, too.

 

[george kaplan]

Well you're entitled to your opinion, but "I only care about the shows themselves", and not the "stupid background music" is a pretty inane comment. That "stupid background music" IS part of the show! What else would it be OK to take away or replace cause it's "not part of the show"? Can we plaster advertising for things on background funiture? Change the voices of the actors? Cut out the "boring" parts?

Just cause you don't care about some aspects of a show and therefore don't mind them being tampered with, doesn't mean that those parts are therefore stupid, or OK to remove, or that people who refuse to allow such censorship to take place are too damn anal.

 

[Robert Ringwald]

Forgive me, but isn't music PART of a show? It's not necessarily just "background" music in all cases either.

Removing of music in some cases can destroy the emotional impact or just the flow of a certain scene. Films have sound for a reason. In some cases, sure, it doesn't exactly change the impact, but I suggest you change the score of some of your favorite movies, or remove a few of the songs you enjoy from some of them and rethink the comment.

Sure I can understand the season 2 finale of Buffy if they had replaced "Full of Grace" by sarah maclachlan, but it certainly wouldn't have had the same emotional impact considering the scene was constructed with that song in mind.

Music is an important part of movies and television, and just because it's not a score... or that some people don't care if stuff is removed or replaced doesn't make it any less a butchering of art.

And sorry to burst your bubble, but sometimes not all of the songs used are top 40 pop songs. Some are carefully picked by the creators of shows because they have a certain feel.

I think what I'm trying to say is... Studios SHOULD try their best to clear the rights, and should only resort to music replacement when all other options are exhausted. Instead of what Columbia has done with Dawson's Creek... where the prospect of making extra money by not licensing the original music was a bigger priority.

Those sets sold a lot of units, but why bother spending extra cash when you know people will buy stuff with missing music? Was it that expensive to license "I want you to want me?" for one episode of Dawson's Creek? or just easier to cut the whole scene out? Obviously cheaper and more cost effective to cut the scene. Yet somehow I've heard it in many other films and television shows on DVD... I wonder just how much they'd have had to pay to use the song.

A scary sign of things to come.

 

[MarkHastings]

According to some of the TV commentaries I've listened to...A LOT!!!!!!

 

[Mark Talmadge]

Why? While music MAY seem like it's more than background music it really is JUST that. Background Music.

Roswell had a lot of music replacement and the pieces they used worked well for the scenes in which they were replaced. It seems pretty anal that instead of fans feelings excited that they have their favourite shows on DVD, they're too intent on bitching that the original music wasn't included.

I don't buy DVD's to listen to music. I buy CD's to listen to music. I buy DVD's to watch my favourite movies, television shows and whatnot. I do have sympathy for everyone as I do enjoy the original music as well but it's not the be-all and end-all of my viewing experience.

 

[george kaplan]

Why what? Yes, Background music is just background music. That doesn't mean it's not a part of the show. Nor does it mean it's not an important part of the show.

When you watch Citizen Kane, Orson Welles' voice is JUST Orson Welles' voice. So what if it were dubbed by Pauly Shore? It would still be Citizen Kane, and anyone who complained about the dubbing would just be being anal.

Who cares if Han shoots first? Who cares if FBI agents in E.T. have walkie-talkies instead of guns? Who cares if extraneous information on the sides of the frame is chopped off in a pan & scan presentation? People are just too damn anal about those things.

 

[MarkHastings]

While I won't agree that all music is just background music, in the case that it is just "background" music, there's still a reason for it. Background music is just as important as the opening theme. Background noises set the tone of the moment.

So while the music may not seem as predominant or important to you, it really is.

And what about music that isn't just background music? I hate to bring South Park up again, but I've been into the Season 7 DVD's, so I gotta comment on it.

The Raisins episode where Stan finds out that Wendy isn't interested in him anymore...at that moment, they play "Don't Know What you've Got" (by Cinderella). It's so perfect for that moment and I can't imagine anything else that could replace it.

 

[Mark Talmadge]

Without getting too much off the topic, to sit and complain about music rights and the fact that original music doesn't accompany DVD's ... then so what? Who cares?

No one here is buying these television shows on DVD just to listen to the music. If they are, then they really need to save their money and buy the CD's instead. For me, I buy DVD's for the video entertainment contained on the DVD's, not the music. If the issue were arguing between synidcated and broadcasted episodes, I could see the point, but original music?

It seems like every few months someone posts a new topic about music rights, gets everyone embattled into a heated argument and then drops it after the topic has died. I really think that the Admin and Mods really need to put a stopper to this discussion because while we can all stand here and argue back and forth, the issue still remains the same.

With such studios such as Warner, who probably uses a lot of music from artists who are under contract with them, they probably get a reasonable negotiating price for that music when it comes to shows such as Smallville.

Universal Studios uses very little in the way of licensed music, Sony is in the same boat. The only reason this issue comes up is because of a particular show like WKRP.

Instead of complaining about it, everyone needs to start sending letters tyo the studios who own the rights to shows like WKRP and tell them to pay the fees for that licensed music. What it comes down, is that the studios want to spend as little money on music rights for the DVD release because they didn't negotiate for the rights of that show where the music appears on and because they don't know how well the show is going to be received on DVD.

What this boils down to is that you have two choices:

1. you won't get the series on DVD with original music
2. you get the original series with replaced music

My guess is that many of you, catching your eye on a television series released to DVD that you have been waiting forever for, will buy the television show with the replaced music AND sit and complain about it.

For me, I thoroughly enjoyed Roswell with its replaced music.



Even the original creators of that music need to get paid for the work they created otherwise DVD studios are worse than downloaders of music who don't pay for that music.

 

[MarkHastings]

You're COMPLETELY missing the point.

I don't think anyone is saying they are buying DVD's SOLEY for the music. If you can find an instance where that was said, I'll humbly retract my statement, but I can guarantee you that everyone (who doesn't want music replaced) is looking at the TV show as a whole.

DVD is all about A/C - A/V stands for "Audio/Video" - The audio is JUST as important as the video is. Replacing any part of the audio is just as bad as replacing any part of the video.

To say that the audio part isn't as important as the video, is not what this forum is about. This forum is for people who care about every aspect of the process. It's fine if you don't care about the audio, I'm not going to force you into that, but you do have to realize that you're in the minority here.

It's just like going to a gear head forum and wondering why people are conserned about the proper motor oil to use in their classic cars. How many would agree with you there if you said "Who the hell cares, just use any motor oil and shut up!"

 

[Christian Preischl]

I think this has more to do with the particular show and less with the studio. After all, Quantum Leap, Northern Exposure and Miami Vice are Universal, Dawson's Creek is Sony, and all are very heavy on licensed music.

 

[george kaplan]

Mark T.,

As the other Mark has pointed out, you seem to be missing the point. I don't want the original music just to listen to it. I want it in the context of the show. Hell, you could buy an audio recording of the dialogue. Does that mean you wouldn't complain if the dvd came with video and no sound?

It's not the background music I want, it's the ENTIRE show, of which the background music is very much a part.



Between those I'll take #1 everytime. But I do think there's another choice:

3. Buy dvd sets that are complete and have original music

And yes, I pick #3 a LOT. Hell, I have dozens of dvds of tv programming. All with the original music.

Now, I may have to skip some sets I would buy if they were complete, but that's fine. That's voting with my wallet, and if they ever do release it complete, I'll buy it then.

 

[James Reader]

But George, it's not that simple. Not enough people bought enough "Murphy Brown" to make continuing releases worthwhile. The rights owners of "Love and Marriage" put the price up for subsequent seasons of "Married With Children" thinking that had Sony over a barrel.

People complained about "Quantum Leap", but does anyone know how many more copies they would have sold if original music was included, but the price was upped 30%-50%? They sure wouldn't have got as many "impulse" buys from people who browse DVD releases in shops. You know, the vast majority of DVD buyers.

Would you like to start collecting a series, only for the price to go up when the publishers realise that the releses are popular, and this decide to charge more money (such as MWC)?

It's not a question of studios being cheap and greedy. Or even music rights holders being greedy and expensive. It's a mixture of both, and until a standard, industry wide agreement is sorted out (like there is with the Screen Actors Guild and Screen Writers Guild etc.) it will never be resolved to any for of satisfaction.

I watched a programme on BBC4 a few weeks ago, and found out the BBC has a blanket agreement in the UK for music rights. They can literally play any music on a show and pay a standard fee for it's use (Yes, even the Beatles singing). But such agreements haven't been reached for other intellectual rights (in fact, the presenter pointed out he could play a track from the Beatles, but couldn't show any of their album covers without especially negotiating a fee). Of course, this only applies to TV rights, not home video, as nobody even imagined this would be an issue when the agreement was made.

 

[Mark Talmadge]

James R, you hit my sentiments right on the mark. Studios use license music in many television shows and oftentimes those rights only extend to broadcast/television rights. However, since home video, in whatever format it may be, is considered intellectual media rights, those ocmpanies have to pay for the rights to use that license material, in this case, music, in order to release it. DVD represents a new intellectual medium and the music artists that created it are entitled to payment along with the studios that release it.

Studios, as James R said, look at a series and see if its viable to even consider looking at negotiating for the rights to that music to release it to home video. Here in the Unied States, especially where WKRP is concerned, a very hot series among fans, the rights holders to the music contained on that show feel that they are entitled to getting paid for their music if it appears on their show and they are entitled to getting paid for the music they created.

Where this series is concerned, the music that appears on WKRP wasn't created specifically for that show, it alsready existed on record albums and such so the licensing fees are going to be much higher.

 

[Joseph DeMartino]

Nightclubs and (music) radio stations in the U.S. similarly pay blanket royalties via ASCAP or BMI, but the different histories of radio and television in the U.S. and the U.K. led to different treatment of televised music.

In America you can be made to pay royalties if your TV or movie characters sing "Happy Birthday". (Yes it is still protected by copyright and subject to royalty.) Sports Night did an episode where Dan had to reimburse the network a hundred bucks and change because he had sung "Happy Birthday" to Casey on the air.

Regards,

Joe

 

[Lucia Duran]

When Roswell was released without most of the original music I admit that I was hesitant to purchase the dvds. For me, and I am sure lots of others, the music is as much a part of the show as the storyline and characters....

I remember exactly the song being played when future Max danced with Liz on the rooftop right before he disappeared. The song really made that moment for me. It added something special to it.

Music is a big deal to me. I have a soundtrack to my life and can remember special moments because of a song. It's the same for tv with me. It may sound stupid to some people, but it is a huge part of the show.

 

[george kaplan]

For the studios, perhaps not. For me, yes it is that simple.

Might releasing a tv show with music replacement and/or syndicated episodes, etc. be a wise financial move? Maybe. Maybe they will sell more or make more money that way. Then again, maybe not. There are examples of dvds that were properly released (though perhaps not properly promoted) that didn't sell well enough, and maybe that can be blamed on too high a price. On the other hand, there are examples of dvds that were improperly released that also didn't sell well enough, and maybe that can be blamed on discriminating viewers not wanting to buy shit just because it's cheap.

All I know is that they won't get my sale if they do that. Having a butchered episode on my shelves would be an abomination, and not something that will ever happen.

I know why I complain about these butchered episodes. It's clear that I want these shows, but want them done right. I'm really not sure why people come in and defend and try to trivialize things like music replacement. I can only assume it's somehow trying to reduce cognitive dissonance over having bought them, by trying to convince themselves that it's not a big deal, it's just some background music, or some of the weaker jokes that was cut out.