Multiple (Stacked) Projectors vs Anamorphic Lens and/or Video Processor (MADvr) (1 Viewer)

[NTLKnight]

Recently while attending a convention, I asked the video technician who was running a massive projector setup in a huge room with several thousand people how he got such a great picture in a bright room. He explained that he was using 2 identical projectors (Sony's) stacked. There were 2 reasons for this; 1, for a brighter image and 2, the 2nd projector acted as a backup in case the 1st one stopped working.

I didn't think much about that until recently...since I'm on the precipice of buying my first projector. Because I plan on using the projector primarily for movie watching, 2.4 is likely what it will be projecting most of the time. So, brightness comes in to question (since I'm aiming to go for as big a screen as possible in our space...160"-170"). With an Epson LS12000 being the model I'm leaning towards, it's been difficult to justify the cost of adding an anamorphic lens...or an external video processor to the setup...albeit, if money were no object, I'd probably go for both. But then my mind went back to the 2 projectors stacked that I saw some time ago. I understand that a multiple-projector setup won't regain lost pixels (from using lens zoom), but is it fair to consider that the increase in light from 2 stacked projectors would be at least equal to, if not brighter...than using an anamorphic lense and/or an external video processor for brightness? I realize there are other benefits and details at play, but I wanted to ask if using 2 projectors stacked would be a cheaper way to get a bright image on a large cinema-scope screen.

It's funny thinking about this as much as I have been...without being able to actually test or physically see how big of an image I can get in our space (21.1' long, 16.2' wide and 8' tall) with a single projector...and no anamorph lens and no MADvr. So I really appreciate the forum where I can ask this type of thing!

• In a 2-projector stacked setup, would both projectors need to be the same model?
• If using 2 stacked projectors, could a little money be saved by using slightly cheaper models?

Thank you so much for taking your time to read this!

Nathan

 

[Sam Posten]

Hey Nathan, I don't know anyone here running stacked PJs! Hope you can get some good info.

 

[JohnRice]

Yeah. That is an extremely obscure setup. You might have to do some real digging. I can only imagine how complex that would be.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

I’m not sure this is really achievable with consumer level gear. I admire the scope of your ambition here but trying to do this sort of thing at home may fall into the “solution in search of a problem” category.

Many home theater projectors, and all of the decently-made-or-better ones I’ve run across, list a maximum screen size of 300” in their specs. If you’re looking to project at 160”, that’s going to fall well within normal operating parameters of pretty much any machine you’re looking to get. High end Epsons, in particular, have a reputation for putting out extremely bright images.

So I think in a way the question is, “what problem do you have that you are looking to solve with dual projectors / madVR / anamorphic lenses?” and just looking over your desired screen size, I’m not seeing a problem with using a well-made consumer projector simply as it was designed to be used, without any further embellishments.

If you want further details on what specific models of projectors can do, the throw calculator at Projector Central is an invaluable resource - you can enter in your desired screen size and your preferred model of projector and it’ll tell you exactly where it needs to be placed in the room to get that size and exactly how bright it will be. It may not be as good as seeing it firsthand but it should really assist with your planning before buying.

The thing to keep in mind is, a convention hall type setup isn’t really comparable to a home theater environment. The convention hall setup has to deal with tons of compromises in running temporary setups involving projector placement/throw distance, ambient room light, etc., etc., that you as someone making a dedicated room for movie watching aren’t going to have to worry about. They’re trying to project in environments not conducive to projection and you’re gonna sidestep that whole issue by having an environment that’s meant for watching movies in the first place.

 

[DaveF]

With an Epson LS12000 being the model I'm leaning towards, it's been difficult to justify the cost of adding an anamorphic lens...or an external video processor to the setup...albeit, if money were no object, I'd probably go for both. But then my mind went back to the 2 projectors stacked that I saw some time ago.

…

• In a 2-projector stacked setup, would both projectors need to be the same model?
• If using 2 stacked projectors, could a little money be saved by using slightly cheaper models?

Haven’t done this. I encourage you to pursue because everyone deserves a ridiculous hobby. Mine is an HTPC. Yours can be dual-projection.

Some thoughts on this: You face the fundamental decision of what matters, in a stark way? Is image size and brightness the absolute top priority? Because you’re talking about spending $10,000 on dual LS12000 to get 170” screen over a single LS12000 and an Envy or a single NZ7 for much better image quality but at a smaller screen.

Or you’re looking at dual LS11000 for $8000 with even lower image quality instead of paying less for the much better NP5 or a single LS12000 and maybe an Envy. Again, trading quality for size.

Dual projection will have obvious difficulties up front: mounting, aligning and keeping aligned the two projectors to 4K precision and calibrating them both to the same image characteristics. You also get twice the fan noise and twice the heat as secondary nuisances.

This is all doable. But I think you really gotta want it given the tradeoffs. But that’s projection in general. Even getting a 120” screen requires really thinking about the costs and benefits vs a 80” to 100” direct view.

Happy planning!

 

[DaveF]

I’m not sure this is really achievable with consumer level gear. I admire the scope of your ambition here but trying to do this sort of thing at home may fall into the “solution in search of a problem” category.

Many home theater projectors, and all of the decently-made-or-better ones I’ve run across, list a maximum screen size of 300” in their specs. If you’re looking to project at 160”, that’s going to fall well within normal operating parameters of pretty much any machine you’re looking to get. High end Epsons, in particular, have a reputation for putting out extremely bright images.

For 160” you’re losing a lot of brightness especially for “HDR” content. The LS12000 is bright, until you calibrate it and then it‘s in family or a bit brighter than every other sub-$10k projector.

Running a 120” screen with last gen NX5 in bright mode, I’m at the threshold brightness for “HDR” from a projector. Looking at people running 150”+ screens, my impression is they’re making hard decisions on image priorities.

 

[Cleopatra]

Sorry if these are dumb questions, but...
How does a stacked PJs setup work? Are both PJs supposed to project the same video signal at the same time, while perfectly aligned to the pixel? If that's so, it sounds like hell to set up.

 

[JohnRice]

Sorry if these are dumb questions, but...
How does a stacked PJs setup work? Are both PJs supposed to project the same video signal at the same time, while perfectly aligned to the pixel? If that's so, it sounds like hell to set up.

I can only guess that’s exactly how it works. It does NOT sound like a practical home solution. For a trade show, sure. For home use, it sounds like the antidote to sanity.

 

[Cleopatra]

it sounds like the antidote to sanity

Ha ha, very well said!

Indeed, I can picture this setup for a one-shot, large scale public event (the basic idea is actually clever), but trying this at home is another matter.

 

[Indy Guy]

I am a scope fanatic and also wanted a projector optimized for scope. Barco makes an expensive line of residential projectors that have native 2.35 chips (approx 5K pixels). They have single and triple chip models with slight trade-offs for both.
I purchased the least expensive model (which is still expensive) but it eliminates the need for anamorphic lenses or dual projectors. The native 5K 2.35 chip allows all the pixels to project the active area of a scope film rather than devoting a third of the pixels to projecting black bars. When showing 16x9 films, the Barco utilizes the same number of pixels as other projectors showing normal 16x9 content, with the left and right scope areas projecting black similar to the black bars above and below scope films when presented on 16x9 equipment.
Scope films utilize all of the Barco's 5K pixels for brightness and color vs about 2.8K pixels being in active use on non anamorphic lensed 16x9 4K projectors.
(Adding an anamorphic lens does allow scope content to be processed with all 4K pixels active prior to being unsqueezed by the lens).
I've had the Barco for 5 years and I really enjoy the crisp, bright scope images from the 5K Barco DLP Chip. I have only encountered a few 4K DolbyVision discs (from Paramount) that give its older 4K tone mapping some headaches.

 

[NTLKnight]

Thank you to everyone for your great responses, they are much appreciated!

I encourage you to pursue because everyone deserves a ridiculous hobby. Mine is an HTPC. Yours can be dual-projection.

I hope you won't mind if I reach out to you about your HTPC one of these days. Is the computer what you play your content off of?--routed through an AVR and then to the projector?

Is image size and brightness the absolute top priority? Because you’re talking about spending $10,000 on dual LS12000 to get 170” screen over a single LS12000 and an Envy or a single NZ7 for much better image quality but at a smaller screen.

Image size is my top priority, yes. Next would be image quality (which I suppose should include brightness...as we won't want to be watching movies that are projected dim). Sound is important, but not as important as getting the biggest image possible in our space. A single LS12000 + Envy still comes out to considerably more than 2 LS12000s. A Panamorph lens is almost the price of 2 LS12000s.

Running a 120” screen with last gen NX5 in bright mode, I’m at the threshold brightness for “HDR” from a projector. Looking at people running 150”+ screens, my impression is they’re making hard decisions on image priorities.

For me it seems that settling for a projector setup with a 120" screen is not a big enough "bump-up" from getting a 98" TV for under $4k, or an 86" TV for under $1k. I convinced the wife to let me turn our living room around (long-ways) to have a HT/Living Room...and be able to get a screen as big as possible...she said, "Why not just get a bigger TV?". When I showed her a 98" TV compared to a 160" projector screen, the size difference was worth the (much bigger deal) of going the projector route. I'm not sure I'd be convinced to go the "projector route" for only a 120" screen...with all the trouble that's needed to get there.

Sorry if these are dumb questions, but...
How does a stacked PJs setup work? Are both PJs supposed to project the same video signal at the same time, while perfectly aligned to the pixel? If that's so, it sounds like hell to set up.

I am a scope fanatic and also wanted a projector optimized for scope. Barco makes an expensive line of residential projectors that have native 2.35 chips (approx 5K pixels). They have single and triple chip models with slight trade-offs for both.
I purchased the least expensive model (which is still expensive) but it eliminates the need for anamorphic lenses

Thanks for sharing this...I've been confused as to why most (if not all) HT projectors are native 16:9. Never heard of Barco before...enjoyed their website and looking over their many models. (For that matter, never heard of Christie before last week when I saw a HT review on YT. I believe those also project scope AR at high lumens.) I don't understand how HT enthusiast...like this guy:

...spends $1M on a HT...including $80k on a projector, but then needs an anamorphic lens (and probably a video processor) to get the image bright enough. Shouldn't that level (and budget) of HT enthusiast get native scope projectors? (BTW, which model Barco did you get?)

Thanks again,
Nathan

 

[DaveF]

Thank you to everyone for your great responses, they are much appreciated!


I hope you won't mind if I reach out to you about your HTPC one of these days. Is the computer what you play your content off of?--routed through an AVR and then to the projector?

Sure. I’ve got a thread on in the HTPC forum. I watch movies on an nVidia Shield as the streaming client (since the Shield supports bit-streamed Atmos and 4K HDR). It’s getting harder to “justify” an HTPC given the proliferation and simplicity of streaming subscriptions and digital movie streaming. But, for now I still spend time to rip and manage the few discs I buy a year.

Image size is my top priority, yes. Next would be image quality (which I suppose should include brightness...as we won't want to be watching movies that are projected dim). Sound is important, but not as important as getting the biggest image possible in our space. A single LS12000 + Envy still comes out to considerably more than 2 LS12000s. A Panamorph lens is almost the price of 2 LS12000s.


For me it seems that settling for a projector setup with a 120" screen is not a big enough "bump-up" from getting a 98" TV for under $4k, or an 86" TV for under $1k. I convinced the wife to let me turn our living room around (long-ways) to have a HT/Living Room...and be able to get a screen as big as possible...she said, "Why not just get a bigger TV?". When I showed her a 98" TV compared to a 160" projector screen, the size difference was worth the (much bigger deal) of going the projector route. I'm not sure I'd be convinced to go the "projector route" for only a 120" screen...with all the trouble that's needed to get there.

It’s worth considering that a 150” screen is over twice the area of a 98” display.

My recommendation echoes advice you’ve gotten elsewhere: consider a high-gain, non-AT, screen, and a single Epson LS12000. Run in it dynamic mode to get maximum brightness with adjustments to not look terrible. Look into the LLDV Dolby Vision hack using a Vertex device to improve HDR tone mapping without the expense of an Envy. Use Optical Zoom (not an anamorphic lens) for constant image height widescreen (e.g. 2.35:1) content. See how that looks. If you’re happy, great. if not, then you can look into a dual projector setup.

You should also spend some time playing with the projector calculators to understand what the brightness might be for a 150” or 170” screen. Then get some demos where the brightness is known. Even better, where you can have the brightness set to what you expect to get on your screen. That should give you some sense of whether you’ll enjoy the image you’ll get with one or two projectors.

And if you’re looking at spending the $20,000+ to get a high-end, ultra-large screen experience, you should look at the Sony XW7000ES because I recall it’s a very bright and vibrant projector. I’ve seen it on a 140” or larger screen and it was fantastic. I have reservations about Sony projectors, but given the trade offs you’re looking at, it’s also worth a look.

 

[Indy Guy]

Thank you to everyone for your great responses, they are much appreciated!


I hope you won't mind if I reach out to you about your HTPC one of these days. Is the computer what you play your content off of?--routed through an AVR and then to the projector?


Image size is my top priority, yes. Next would be image quality (which I suppose should include brightness...as we won't want to be watching movies that are projected dim). Sound is important, but not as important as getting the biggest image possible in our space. A single LS12000 + Envy still comes out to considerably more than 2 LS12000s. A Panamorph lens is almost the price of 2 LS12000s.


For me it seems that settling for a projector setup with a 120" screen is not a big enough "bump-up" from getting a 98" TV for under $4k, or an 86" TV for under $1k. I convinced the wife to let me turn our living room around (long-ways) to have a HT/Living Room...and be able to get a screen as big as possible...she said, "Why not just get a bigger TV?". When I showed her a 98" TV compared to a 160" projector screen, the size difference was worth the (much bigger deal) of going the projector route. I'm not sure I'd be convinced to go the "projector route" for only a 120" screen...with all the trouble that's needed to get there.







Thanks for sharing this...I've been confused as to why most (if not all) HT projectors are native 16:9. Never heard of Barco before...enjoyed their website and looking over their many models. (For that matter, never heard of Christie before last week when I saw a HT review on YT. I believe those also project scope AR at high lumens.) I don't understand how HT enthusiast...like this guy:

...spends $1M on a HT...including $80k on a projector, but then needs an anamorphic lens (and probably a video processor) to get the image bright enough. Shouldn't that level (and budget) of HT enthusiast get native scope projectors? (BTW, which model Barco did you get?)

Thanks again,
Nathan

I purchased the Barco Balder Cinemascope Model.

 

[NTLKnight]

It’s worth considering that a 150” screen is over twice the area of a 98” display.

Yes, certainly. I believe you said you run a 120" with an NX5 and you're at your brightness threshold. 98" to 120" to me doesn't seem like a big jump in size, but 150" - 170"...for sure, yes.

My recommendation echoes advice you’ve gotten elsewhere: consider a high-gain, non-AT, screen, and a single Epson LS12000. Run in it dynamic mode to get maximum brightness with adjustments to not look terrible. Look into the LLDV Dolby Vision hack using a Vertex device to improve HDR tone mapping without the expense of an Envy.

Actually, I believe it was you who recommended a high-gain no AT screen...and since I had no idea what you were talking about when you said that, I had to look those terms up! Would you be able to point me to where I can buy such material in a roll to build the screen myself?

Thanks,
Nathan