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Discussion in 'Speakers & Subwoofers' started by DanH1972, Jun 27, 2014.
Overkill to the extreme.
And since when do "we" Not like overkill?My primary installer...I was shooting the breeze about and entire Maggie 11.1.He goes..."I know where a false wall is where a set of Tympani is the frame support for the AT screen. Might fit. Built to come apart around the Tympani"
I'm sure in this day of projection screen setups that it won't be overkill for some, all depends on your screen size and room size, i am all for overkill. We should have had height speakers in the home years ago, now we need floor speakers and we need those sound mixers to really go to town and make use of them all. I also need to win the lottery to afford it all.
That is if sound mixes actually ever take advantage of all these extra behind the screen speakers. In Dolby's super-duper home Atmos products I could see outputs for the Extra Left/Extra Right screen speakers since that's a feature of their object rendering software. I don't think Dolby will magically incorporate Auro3D speaker positions. And even then they are only matrix derived unless Auro comes to consumer products using DTS MDA object metadata as Barco seems to be switching to in commercial situations.
I do think people might be wise to hold onto their cash until we see what software is released, i suspect the Godzilla remake out in December might be one of the Atmos titles, it might be worth waiting before investing in the hardware too because at the moment from what i have seen only Onkyo have pre outs to power 11 speakers and looking at the back of the Yamaha and Pioneer offerings i don't see pre outs from those 9 channel receivers to give us those two additional height speakers.
Who says you need multiple speakers when we have...TympaniXR90QuadMartin LoganApogee (all used)That stand 6-8 feet tall?
But those don't separate out the different "channels" of positional audio information from an object format.
Apparently you've never heard a pair of Maggie in person.
I have actually. But, again, this is not how Atmos or any other object surround format works. You need speakers in multiple positions just like with other surround formats. The more speakers you can accommodate, the better and more precise the 3D effect becomes.
Precisely. The more there is the more realistic it can be. But depends on how close to the screen you are. The further you move back the the sound field might be a sound defused. But there are some things in Real life, that can sound defused curse your standing some distance away from it.
If someone was walking on the opposite side of the road on the pavement you might hear a woman's high heeled shoes now and then between some of the passing traffic.
It sounds kinder ear height to you. So you cross the road and then you start hearing it or perceiving below you, while having a conversation and hearing the her voice at head ear height level.
I think the surrounds should be really more, or take the 64 and share it around to other positions in the room.
A top corner left/right array
A middle common left/right wall array that cinema and home uses
A bottom corner left/right array
And the same for the back wall.
So when some sound images pan off they can at least have some breathing space to move freely into locations that would at least make it, a more thrilling.
Go and watch TOP GUN on laserdisc AC-3 DVD HD-DVD bluray what ever and don't just listen, watch where the sound objects are moving away off screen and the angle.
Some ether pan off screen centre middle, or middle to left-right or bottom corners left/right and centre middle below the screen. When I see that then hear it on the common surrounds it makes no sense? Why? There simply not enough channels on the surrounds. I think Dolby Atmos is overkill. The idea is great. Its just been wasted far too much on this, "pan-though", which is neat idea. It needs to be refined and polished up a lot more.
How did that PLIIz work was that like, say swapping the PLIIx around and fitting up front? I read that a lot that own it aren't all that thrilled with it?
Well I can see it only does 4 extra matrix channels. Well nothing wrong in that, expect selling it as width and height seems like a con, as its not a real discrete. I like adding in extra Matrix on the surrounds or the fronts at a lesser cost.
I can hear how PLIIx works on its own with the LCR/SW muted with Dolby 5.1 PLIIx switched ON and then down-mix the 5.1 to 2.0 and listen again to the same scene and wow, not bad going for what it can it, PL is a bit restricted. PLII I could get something more excrement out of the surrounds with some expansion. But I feel I'd get more from PLIIx. That is daisy chain a cheap AVR that has PLIIx on it and you can use its amps to power the surrounds and the new set of extra matched surrounds.
Use the L/R side surround plugged into the AVR L/R analouge then switch it to PLIIx and see what does to the stereo side surrounds? Fit some speakers on the ceiling and below your seating.
Which outputs do you use? Well the front outputs will go to side wall arrays.
The side output on the PLIIx (trail and error here) you can ether fit the output to the ceiling surrounds or below surrounds placed underneath your seating if you happen to have cinema seats with fold up seats. Or place it behind a sofa on the floor. Best underneath a cinema seat as the sound reflects off the seat bucket and creates a defused sound that spreads around below, you.
The rear surround output well maybe fit that to the ceiling or underneath the seating?
I have tried standard PL with side wall surrounds and thou the Dolby SA10 uses the rear surround output fed to the ceiling surrounds for "We Were Solders" which is neither here or there.
I trued Dolby CP45 that is the same as SA10 only SA10 is stripped down and modified, with a different front panel and rear back look to it.
Eraser (1996) has neat sound moment on the surrounds, the scene in the building where they break-in to get the disc file. The scene that has the shoot-out between Arnold and Caan where bullet-proof door seals off a section of the floor.
When Caan, runs off with his, hostage Arnie fires his, gun at water sprinkler that sets off the fire-alarm, The computer automated voice sounds defused on the side surrounds with water sprinkling out.
When used with PL the voice is shifted to the ceiling surrounds that makes me think, there are speakers in the ceiling. Well you look at most places and you'll see flush mounted pa speakers fitted in the celling ether at shopping centres or office buildings.
I was referring to...speakers along the front wall only. Not side, nor ceiling.Going to tell me 9 "directional" (take your pick of what...totem Rainmaker, Paradigm studio, KEF Q300 etc) speakers is going to do what 3 Maggie 3.7 wont?(Atmos, no matter how you skin it, is still matrixed for the home market...at this moment. When that changes from 11.1 matrix off 7.1 to 24 complete channels...I'll agree. Till then...)
When the panning is done well, the three front channels can be very effective. On top of that, large speakers, of any type, of course would make a bigger difference. The Atmos/Object encoding uses what up front, the three front plus two wides and two height?
No. In large auditoriums with even bigger screens, they recommend this layout: Left/Left Extra/Center/Right Extra/Right. This is like the 70mm six-track configuration of yore... or Sony SDDS.
According to the white papers, there are no front behind-the-screen heights. The two extra screen speakers are addressed with objects... either anchored or panned through... be it dialog, sound effects, or part of the music score.
Well the whitepaper rules can be re-written.
Why otherwise would Dolby and manufactures be pushing PLIIz a few years ago? Extra speakers for width? I have just about plenty room between my LCR to fit in an extra matched pair and do a diy-5 screen matrix that isn't all that hard to set-up.
Then I can listen to Julie Andrews, at the opening of The Sound of Music, when she walks between the trees and the voice is moving from stage left to half phantom between left and centre then onto centre. I'd like to have it with 5 speakers up front. So I can switch it on/off for any film.
Here's a little Fox Mulder, humour.
(dts Laserdisc, analouge mode is on for back-up while dts plays in discrete).
What got me with this scene and all this PLIIz stuff was it can't allow Fox Mulder, X-Files Fight The Future (1998) to pee on my home cinema floor, why? PLIIz can't take any signal and send it to a HF horn located on the floor.
I tried an experiment just by fitting an extra HF horn on the floor and disconnected the HF horn on centre channel on my stage, and played the scene again. Ekkkkkkk, Mulder was pissing on my floor. My attention wasn't focused upwards while he arcs it up at ID4 poster on the wall. No the sound was drawing my attention downwards to the floor.
I later got out the detergent and cleaned the floor,
So we do need a 9 screen channel or best 15. Least then classic Todd-AO 70mm and studios won't have no excuses to giving us the mix as exhibited in the cinema.
Dolby has front wide side surround locations. They go on the side walls between the regular surround arrays and the screen speakers and are aimed towards the listener.
One or two basic Atmos products allow for these front wide speakers, but you give up two of the top ceiling speakers. It has to do with limited processing power in the 1st gen decoders.
I recall at Empire Leicester Square, before it became a fake lieMax. You can't beat 1330 seat THX cinema.
Captain Kirk's voice is panned on (overhead left and then overhead right) when announcing to the crew of the Enterprise. I heard this clearly above me in the front and centre row. I can look upwards and while still looking at the screen.
At home the mix or doesn't mater if I saw the film a third time at the cinema in 6 channel the dialouge scene will only have the voice panning on left and right with half pan on the centre.
And Empire 1 screen used to be HUGE a screen, Why they had to go with lieMAX and outdated lieMAX sound system, I'll never understand that?
kbarnes701 from AVS Forum just posted his impressions from a consumer Atmos event at Dolby Labs in England. Thought you might enjoy his enthusiastic perspective, so I reprinted his post.
On July 15th I was invited to a demonstration of Atmos For The Home at Dolby Labs in London. This was a wonderful opportunity for me to be one of the very first AV enthusiasts to hear at first hand just how well — or not of course — the theatrical Atmos experience translates to the confines of the typical home cinema. What follows is a report of my experience that day and the impressions gained from it.
The demonstration was split into two parts. The first was held in Dolby’s amazing screening room. We were told that this room represents “probably the finest Atmos experience in Europe” and I can easily believe that, having heard what we did.
The room seated, at a guess, for I failed to count, about 130 seats and the rows of speakers on the side walls, down to the screen, on the rear walls and in two rows above our heads were pointed out to us. All in all I counted 32 speakers, more or less, including two huge subwoofers mounted in the rear corners.
Opening demo in Dolby’s main screening room.
After an explanation of the broad principles of object-based audio, we were treated to a couple of Dolby’s own short demo clips. While these did indeed display the amazing sense of 3D immersion in a sound field, my feeling was that this was to be ‘expected’. After all, Dolby themselves are not going to create special demo material that fails to deliver a good Atmos experience, especially in their own screening room. Sounds zipped around us, over us, even passing ‘through’ us. The precision and definition was startling, the bass was the best I have heard, anywhere, ever.
But what the small group of audience members was craving were some actual movie clips. And here, Dolby did not fall short. As we may have expected, the most awesome was the Academy Award Winning sound of Gravity. The clip chosen was close to the beginning of the movie, where Clooney and Bullock are space-walking, apparently repairing a failed component. Those who have seen this movie (including me, who has seen it four times) will remember the way the voices of the two actors pan around the room as the camera angle angle changes, all the while accompanied by the ceaseless chatter of radio comms, both from the characters in space and those on the ground at Mission Control. Even in 5.1 this is impressively done, but nothing can prepare you for the way that it is handled via Atmos. And then, the story starts. “Mission abort! Mission abort!” shouts Ed Harris from ground control, and all hell breaks loose, culminating in Bullock’s character cutting loose and being catapulted into space. So effective was the sound track at putting me “right there” that I felt my pulse rate quicken and my elevated heart rate left me a little short of breath. I was “there”, out in space, with them. It was an amazing experience and I have never felt anywhere near as immersed in a movie as I did during that sequence.
But in some ways, this was as expected as it was amazing. We were sitting in “probably the finest Atmos facility in Europe”. What we all wanted to know now was “how does this translate to the home?”, and this was next up on the agenda.
Atmos in the home theater.
We were split into groups of six and taken into a small, 6 seater ‘home theatre’ on the first floor of the Dolby facility. Immediately on entering the room, I noticed that it was treated, including treatments running front to back down the centre of the ceiling, and that the 7.2.4 Atmos system which they were running consisted of two decently sized subs and 7 fairly modest looking bookshelf satellite speakers. In the ceiling I could see 4 modest in-ceiling speakers. I’d say the room was about 15 feet long and 12 feet wide, with an 8 foot ceiling, so the sort of space that many people could easily replicate at home. I would say that the system components in this room were of the sort that most people could afford - there was nothing that seemed in any way ‘over the top’, so Dolby had gone to lengths to make this room typical of what we could recreate for ourselves at home.
The first demo up were the specially created Dolby ‘sound logos’ we had heard in the main room so that we could compare the two experiences. As before, they were excellent but expected. What impressed was, again, the three dimensionality of the sound. This demo, it was explained, was using the physical in-ceiling speakers, but all of the subsequent demos would use the Atmos-enabled speakers. This is where it started to get interesting.
When the operator played the Dolby demo clip again, using this time the Atmos speakers, I noticed a small, but definite, diminution of the precision with which the sounds were placed, especially overhead. But it was surprisingly small. One of the audience members I spoke to afterwards said he couldn’t hear any difference at all. I stress that the difference was unexpectedly small.
Watch out - Gollum is above you… behind you… in front of you… to the side of you…
But again, what I wanted to hear was not specially created Dolby clips but some real movie content and I was not disappointed. Let me try to describe what I heard when they played a clip from The Hobbit. It is the clip, for those of you who have seen the movie (twice for me at home and once in a SOTA cinema) where Gollum encounters Bilbo in a huge cave. Gollum is playing a malevolent game with Bilbo where he darts from shadow to shadow, rock to rock, taunting Bilbo as he moves around. I am very familiar with this clip and I have used it myself to demonstrate how a good system can ‘lose the walls of the room’ making the space of the HT sound much bigger than it really is.
But nothing, nothing I have heard before prepared me for this Atmos mix. And remember, I was hearing this now only on the Atmos-enabled speakers. The sound of Gollum’s voice came from above, from the left, from the centre, from the above left, from the left-centre, from everywhere that Gollum jumped to in the scene. The precision of the placement of his voice to reflect his physical location on the screen was excellent. I found myself moving my head towards his voice. In some parts of the scene we can’t see Gollum as he is obscured by shadows. But each time he spoke, before we could see him, we knew exactly where he was. Exactly. And when he came out of the shadows to reveal himself, he was exactly where we knew he would be.
Amazing though this was, and amazed as I was at the way the Atmos-enabled speakers ‘just worked’, this was not actually the most impressive part of this scene.
Much, much more than ‘height effects’.
No, the most impressive part was the sheer scale of the space we were now ’sitting in’. The walls and ceiling of the room had gone. They had just vanished. In their place instead were the confines of a massive cave, hundreds of feet wide and high. There is a lot of ambient sound and echoes in this scene and Atmos’s ability to add a height dimension was just breathtaking. I don’t want to ‘gush’ over this, but there is no other way to describe what I was hearing. I had been transported to a huge, echoing cave with an evil little creature taunting me as he hid and revealed himself over and over in this huge space. I closed my eyes. Yes, I was sitting in a massive cave, not a small demo room in central London. If Dolby had blown a cold blast of aircon into then room, the illusion would have been total. And I repeat, this was from the Atmos speakers not the physical in-ceiling speakers. Remember I said that I heard a little more precision in the sound with the physical speakers playing? I can only imagine how much better this clip would sound when using the physical speakers because, sadly, we had run out of time and had to make way for the next six attendees.
My overall impressions? OK - first off, Atmos is much, much more than ‘height effects’. This is one of the great misconceptions about Atmos in my opinion - that is only for ‘height effects’. Forget all about it only being of value when helicopters fly over or rain is coming down. Sure, these things are vastly better when heard via Atmos, but in my view, that is not what Atmos is about. What Atmos truly does is use those ceiling speakers, or the Atmos ‘modules’ in an Atmos speaker, to enable the sound to be precisely located in three dimensional space. The ‘top’ speakers have just as much of an important role in helping place a sound ‘just slightly above your head and to the right’ as they do in flyovers and so on. There is no doubt of the role of top speakers in creating that huge cave space in The Hobbit clip of course - without the ability to put sound ‘over our head’ that scene can never be as impressive as it was in Atmos. But ‘height effects’ doesn’t even begin to cover it.
A genuine revelation - Atmos-enabled speakers.
If you haven’t actually heard Atmos-enabled speakers for yourself, you cannot begin to understand how effective they are. They are not just ‘a bit’ effective. They are not a ‘real compromise’. They are just stunning in a way that can’t really be believed until you have heard them. For anyone who cannot or does not want to install physical speakers on or in the ceiling, Atmos-enabled speakers are not some sort of ‘poor man’s alternative’. Having heard both, ‘side by side’ I can tell you without any shadow of doubt that if you go with Atmos speakers for your Atmos system, you will not, in any way, be disappointed.
Dolby seem to have achieved the impossible here - they have found a way to deliver the Atmos experience in a small home theatre, or in a living room, without the apparent addition of a single extra speaker. To look at the Atmos system I saw and heard this week, it looks no different to any other 7.1 system already out there. If you are comfortable with a 5.1 or 7.1 system in your home, then you can enjoy Atmos without any visible change to the room at all. Note the use of the word ‘visible’. The audible change is of a magnitude I have not heard before.
I would like to thank Dolby, Onkyo (the co-hosts of the demo) and my good friend Allan of Ideal AV in Yorkshire, England for making this day possible. For anyone living within traveling distance of Allan’s great demo room, he will soon be having a full Atmos demo facility up and running. I urge everyone who can to go and hear this and especially anyone who feels that he cannot ‘accommodate’ an Atmos system. You can! And from what I heard this week, you will most definitely want to.
I'm guessing that the Dolby Atmos enabled speakers would not be effective in a behind an AT screen setup. Also, is it one or the other, or are their any additional benefits of using the Atmos enabled speakers with ceiling speakers?
They would not be. You would want to use regular on-ceiling or in-ceiling speakers (that comply to Atmos sound dispersal requirements... they're slowly coming... probably adjustments to already available cinema speakers) especially in this situation.
You would either use Atmos enabled speakers or ceiling speakers, not both. You'd most likely get a weird phase and frequency cancellation effect.
From my experience with Atmos in the theater, ceiling speakers are best because there can be some very directional things going on up top. Atmos all-in-one's are a compromise for those who cannot or will not install ceiling speakers (even kbarnes said he noticed a difference). You also have to have a perfectly flat, unobstructed ceiling built with no sound absorption materials, and you have to sit almost perfectly within the sphere of reflected sound.
So....Atmos Enabled...direct reflecting sound...Where have I heard that before.Oh yeah...Bose.