More dead/fried Tumults (1 Viewer)

[Seth_L]

This driver has the Crown K2 and the bigger QSC amps written all over it.

Now the driver is out. People are blowing 'em and some people (Marshall, Anthony, and Kyle) are complaining that somehow the buyers got the odd idea that they can withstand a lot of power.

Now how might they have gotten that idea?

Seth

 

[Bill Fagal]

Trouble is these days, these darned efficient amps (like the primary suspect in this--the the big, bad, K2) with upward of 80% efficiency (IIRC), can nuke unsuspecting VCs with normal everyday wall current.

I agree with Danny that if you're operating your equipment near 50% of max spec, you're not showing proper respect for either distortion or headroom.

But I know there's lots of fun to be had in "stretching the legs" of a new toy.

 

[Kyle Richardson]

Both the Brahma and RE XXX 15 (which looks virtually identical to a Tumult same basket...)

Heck, I can design a driver that looks like those and will be completely different. You are thiking they are similar because they use the same basket?? Well, gee, I guess the Stryke AV series, MTX8000, Adire DPL12 are all the same driver then

You post comments from posts that were made even before the driver was made and final specs were out. You have to realize that this was a developmental process and designs/specs change. Even using those bolded quotes you pasted (again before the driver was even made and final specs released), 7 recommend power or amplification below Pmax and 2 mention it above....not a very convincing case for you is it?

The final specs have been posted on Adire's site for months now and have not changed. The specs clearly state 1600 watts is Pmax and for some reason you are surprised that they were blown with 2500 watts?

 

[Marshall Joyner]

Seth....the only person complaining..is you..

and you have nothing so far to back up your belly aching...

Shhhhhhh....

 

[Seth_L]

You post comments from posts that were made even before the driver was made and final specs were out. You have to realize that this was a developmental process and designs/specs change. Even using those bolded quotes you pasted (again before the driver was even made and final specs released), 7 recommend power or amplification below Pmax and 2 mention it above....not a very convincing case for you is it?

The final specs have been posted on Adire's site for months now and have not changed. The specs clearly state 1600 watts is Pmax and for some reason you are surprised that they were blown with 2500 watts?

Kyle,

We ordered before final specs were put on Adire's site. We ordered with the best information we had at the time, which we now know was completely erronious. You're going to criticize us for thinking the driver should have been what we were promised, not what Adire decided to ship. I never saw an e-mail in my inbox, or a post on this or any other forum that said, "He guys. We biffed and can't do what we promised you. Here's what we can do. Are you still interested?"

7 of them are not below. According to your own buddy Marshall, Pmax is 1600W. This is a peak power, not 1600W RMS. That means Pe is less than 1150W RMS. I count maybe 1 (depending how you want to look at it) of them that recommends less than 1150RMS.

Seth

 

[Kyle Richardson]

I agree that if you're operating your equipment near 50% of max spec, you're not showing proper respect for either distortion or headroom

I agree, and most of the time properly calibrated subwoofer drivers only see a couple hundred watts which leaves lots of headroom. An amplifier which puts out clean wattage near the driver Pmax will have the capability to move the driver near its linear excursion (~30mm Xmax based upon enclosure) and will provide clean headroom for those occasional peaks. There's no reason you cant have an amp that approaches Pmax for those occasional peaks, but I agree it shouldnt be run at Pmax and expect the driver to survive very long because of dynamic peaks which will be above Pmax.

 

[Seth_L]

Seth....the only person complaining..is you..

and you have nothing so far to back up your belly aching...

Shhhhhhh....

I thought you were going to stay out of this?

I have plenty to back it up. I have no less than 10 quotes between Dan and Kyle that were the best available information we had at the time of ordering that state the Tumults power handling as vastly superior to what we are now being told. If you'd like to somehow explain why the number changed sometime between when everyone's money got taken and they started shipping and no one was informed... Feel free to do so.

Seth

 

[DanWiggins]

Hi all, a few thoughts,

- IEC 268-5 has many subsections in it. And no, I can't fully describe it without violating the copyright of the IEC. The same method is used for Tumults and Brahmas; 2 hours continuous with the specified signal. It will handle 1600W per IEC 268-5, just like Brahma.

- K2s can generate a LOT of power - more than the Tumult (or most any driver) can handle. It's a class D amp, and can pull 2000+W from a 115VAC circuit.

- Most people are using big amps with them, and the vast majority of Tumults haven't blown. We have two people, both of whom pushed them well past their limits with a lot more power than rated. And were pushing them REALLY hard (per the AV/VA forum, he was showing it off, and pushing it as hard as it could go). Surprised when it blew with 2500W? I'm not... Of course, when I downshift to first at 80 MPH in my Ford Ranger, I won't be surprised when I destroy the tranny, either.

- Seth: where in your long post right above have I contradicted myself? A good 1000W to 1500W is plenty. This what we have said all along. And what you'll find what everyone else said too. If you want to run with 2500W, have at it, but if you blow it, please realize you're well out of rated power handling.

- If you want a single number for sine wave, well, you're not going to get one. Power handling is HIGHLY dependent upon box alignment and frequency of excitation. If you don't understand that, then I can point you to some good references to learn about it.

- Experience is key. If you're not 100% comfortable with what you're doing, then don't do it. Don't expect to start learning with $500 drivers, $1500 amps, and kilowatts of power - that's a recipe for disaster. If you do want to start there, then ask around about how to make sure your design is safe.

- The K2 is a lot of power, but I recommend Mackies and QSCs for a reason: indicator lights. The K2 (like most Crown amps) is designed for real pros, where they don't necessarily need output level indicators. You have an over THD light, then a clip light. Problem is, you never see the over THD light without also seeing the clip light (they happen VERY closely to each other). Amps from QSC and Mackie have scaled indicators so you can see how you are approaching clipping - the K2 does not. For pros with proper test gear and a few years of experience, this isn't a problem. For others, this can be a dangerous thing.

- Dave (and others): power handling, excursion, and box size are INTIMATELY related. You CANNOT give a single number as the amount required to reach full excursion, unless you are talking a specific signal and box. It simply can't be done. In most cases, 1000-1200W of power is sufficient. And even if you're only at 90% of the "full excursion" of the driver, you're only down 0.4 dB SPL from the absolute peak you could ever reach. And you will be extremely high in terms of overall SPL - higher than any other single driver will get you.

Dan Wiggins
Adire Audio

 

[Seth_L]

Dan,

Thank you for the clarification. You have confirmed that Pmax is not 1600W peak. It is a 2 hour RMS measurement.

I have no intentions of running 2500W to a Tumult. I was rather unhappy when Kyle and Marshall tried to explain that the numbers that were issued way back by you were not correct. As you might imagine when 1600W RMS (2 hour) measurement went to 1131W RMS (1 second) this wasn't exactly the high point of my day.

With your clarification we now know this is not the case. We are getting what we ordered.

Thanks,
Seth

 

[Anthony_Gomez]

Actually, the K2 has a scaled indicator. The green signal light goes from really dim to really bright before the yellow (or was it red..or both) come on.

 

[Ronnie Ferrell]

Seth- What part of "preorder" did you not understand?

As upset as you are, I think you should just ask for your money back, take a break, and go find another "not so stressful" hobby for a while...

 

[DanWiggins]

Seth,

So I take it you'll now accept that using 2500+W on a 1600W driver isn't always a safe thing?

Anthony,

Thanks for the good point! I know in my experience it seemed the light would move from partially lit to clip a lot faster than I expected. Personally, I prefer the -20/-10/clip scale used on other amps - seems to give a better feel for how you're doing with setting the gains by ear/eye.

Dan Wiggins
Adire Audio

 

[Kyle Richardson]

I have no intentions of running 2500W to a Tumult. I was rather unhappy when Kyle and Marshall tried to explain that the numbers that were issued way back by you were not correct.

?What?

Awe, nevermind.....

 

[Seth_L]

Seth- What part of "preorder" did you not understand?

As upset as you are, I think you should just ask for your money back, take a break, and go find another "not so stressful" hobby for a while...

Preorder doesn't mean you can go and change all the parameters after you get someone's money.

However, as Dan has clarified, Marshall and Kyle are incorrect. The motor has the same continuous capability as the Brahma at 1600W RMS. We are getting what we ordered. This was my concern and it has been addressed. If you can't understand someone's ire at being told, "yeah, we baited and swithed you. But it's been that way for months get over it." Well then I guess you've never had customers hold your rear to the fire to deliver.

Seth

 

[Ronnie Ferrell]

Preorder doesn't mean you can go and change all the parameters after you get someone's money.

At anytime after you placed your preorder have they refused to refund your money? If so, then you have a point. If not, either accept them and be happy or get your money back and move on with your life...

 

[Seth_L]

Seth,

So I take it you'll now accept that using 2500+W on a 1600W driver isn't always a safe thing?

Dan,

I've always accepted that. The issues was that it was being stated that the 1600W driver was really only a 1131W RMS (for 1 second) driver. Following the 1/3rd pattern of the Brahma that would have indicated that if the Tumlult had a peak power of 1600W (as was stated), it would have been a 533W RMS driver. That's a bit hard to swallow at the price of the Tumult.

You'll see I wasn't the only person in this thread who took that from Kyle's and Marshall's remarks. I apparently was the one with the most free time at work who went back and wondered why it apparently change. Thankfully with your clarification we see that's not the case.

Seth

 

[Seth_L]

At anytime after you placed your preorder have they refused to refund your money? If so, then you have a point. If not, get your money back and move on with your life...

Ronnie,

I have yet to ask for my money back because I want my Tumult. However, if it had turned out to be a driver with only a 533W RMS 2 hour continuous power handling capability like was being suggested (by the 1600W 1 second peak number) I probably would have asked for it back based on the very grounds that what was preordered isn't what's shipping.

Seth

 

[Marshall Joyner]

from seth
"You'll see I wasn't the only person in this thread who took that from Kyle's and Marshall's remarks."

yeah...whatever man...1600 the limit?...yeah...pretty much the limit..... was that the point?...yeah..pretty much (personally i'm not giving any woofer for any reason 1000+w for 2 hours for any reason, expecially not a straight signal, so its not that important to me)
..and you still made comments on another forum about how you wouldn't give it more than 500-600 watts because of "WHAT I'VE SEEN"...so is that all changed now?

You also whined about lack of rms ratings ....I explained that to (enclosure and application) but you don't wanna hear it less it comes from Dan...why didn't you just call and ask him instead of throwin a fit and saying you don't trust the drivers with more than 500 watts

....but since you feel better...the world can revolve again....

 

[Anthony_Gomez]

....but since you feel better...the world can revolve again....

sorry, Seth didn't say so.

 

[Seth_L]

Marshall,

Would you like me to start quoting where you said that 1600W was a peak power rating? The Brahma has a 4800W peak power rating and a 2 hour continuous rating of 1600W RMS. As it turns out the Tumult also has a 1600W RMS 2 hour continuous power rating, just like the Brahma. The Tumult probably has a 4800W peak power rating just like the Brahma. The bottom line is you were wrong. By a factor of 3. You posted erronious information and misled people. Don't get mad at me and start trying to trivialize your error.

With an attitude like yours it's amazing you have any customers.

Seth