Moon Knight (Disney+) (1 Viewer)

[TonyD]

^Harrow-ing

 

[NeilO]

Yes, another impressive episode. As far it coming to a conclusion next episode, I think it is possible, but there is a lot to do.

1) Layla needs to free Khonshu. Given the havoc going on - "unbalanced souls in the land of the living are being judged and condemned ... before their time" - it could be that Layla (and maybe Taweret?) might be able to convince the other gods to help.
2) Khonshu needs to bring Marc/Moon Knight back
3) There is a reckoning.

Can all this happen in one episode? We'll find out.

 

[Sean Bryan]

I haven’t seen this week’s episode yet, but I generally agree that the MCU Disney+ shows could use some refinement in the pacing of their stories over the 6-episode seasons.

That being said, aren’t most movies 90-120 minutes and contain a full first, second and third act? Characters and storylines are introduced, events transpire, things are resolved, all within a relatively short amount of screen time compared to TV series. Can’t pretty much any story be concluded in about 45 minutes once all of the groundwork of the first and second acts has been established?

I‘d generally prefer that these series don’t go into the final episode with audience members feeling like there is too much to resolve in just one more episode, and I definitely would prefer no one feels the final episode is rushed. But it seems like 45 minutes should be enough time to satisfactory wrap up a story as long as the writing of that conclusion is tight. Hope that’s the case here.

 

[Joe Wong]

I haven’t seen this week’s episode yet, but I generally agree that the MCU Disney+ shows could use some refinement in the pacing of their stories over the 6-episode seasons.

That being said, aren’t most movies 90-120 minutes and contain a full first, second and third act? Characters and storylines are introduced, events transpire, things are resolved, all within a relatively short amount of screen time compared to TV series. Can’t pretty much any story be concluded in about 45 minutes once all of the groundwork of the first and second acts has been established?

I‘d generally prefer that these series don’t go into the final episode with audience members feeling like there is too much to resolve in just one more episode, and I definitely would prefer no one feels the final episode is rushed. But it seems like 45 minutes should be enough time to satisfactory wrap up a story as long as the writing of that conclusion is tight. Hope that’s the case here.

For me, I think it's more along the lines of how does the pacing of the final episode fit with the rest of the series, even if it wraps things up?

A classic example is Game of Thrones. The last season (#8) wrapped up the storylines, but the speed at which it was done just didn't fit with the 1st 6 seasons. (Even the 7th season seemed a little rushed.)

 

[jayembee]

I just stayed up to watch episode five. Without any spoilers, I will say that I liked it a lot, especially in terms of the development of Steven and Marc's characters. Oscar Isaac has done great work every week, but this was his best episode yet.

This was my favorite episode so far.

 

[Randy Korstick]

For me, I think it's more along the lines of how does the pacing of the final episode fit with the rest of the series, even if it wraps things up?

A classic example is Game of Thrones. The last season (#8) wrapped up the storylines, but the speed at which it was done just didn't fit with the 1st 6 seasons. (Even the 7th season seemed a little rushed.)

I always scratch my head at the season 8 got comments. Yes it was 6 episodes so it was shorter but two of those episodes were very long and when the 2nd episode is dedicated to everyone sitting around a fire, getting drunk and talking nonsense in other words a complete filler episode. I thought the season was too dragged out because they had very little story left to tell. Basically just two big battles and the long time coming turning of Danys to madness. For me GOT jumped the shark at the end of season 5 and never recovered.

 

[Jake Lipson]

I just finished the finale.

I will reserve comment for now; no spoilers from me until more people have been able to watch it. But I did want to let everyone know that the episode includes the first mid-credits scene of the series. So when you watch, stay tuned for that.

After the mid-credits scene ends and the second part of the credits begins, that's it. There is not another tag scene at the very end of the credits.

 

[Robert Crawford]

Well, I'm two episodes behind so I'll try to catch up in the next couple of days.

Well, I still haven't watched those two episodes nor the latest one which appears to be the final episode. It's time for some streaming binging.

 

[Joe Wong]

Pretty good! But I do have a few questions…

 

[Jeff Cooper]

I have loved this series so much through it's run.
As the credits rolled I was left with a huge sense of disappointment.
The after credits scene did do a lot to alleviate that, but I will say that I fully agree with everyone who was worried that 1 episode could not possibly wrap up everything without being extremely rushed.

 

[TonyD]

I wasn’t disappointed even a little bit.
The last ep does create some more questions but I thought it does a terrific job of wrapping up season 1.

 

[Jake Lipson]

I thought it does a terrific job of wrapping up season 1.

That's another thing, though. The finale did not have a Loki style card announcing a second season. The mid-credits tag does heavily imply that we are going to see more of this story in some form or another. But there is no direct arrow pointing to when that will be. They could do a season two or they could fold Oscar Isaac into one of the other MCU projects that they have in the works. Because the show didn't really do very much to connect itself to other goings-on in the MCU, they would probably have to jump through some hoops to have Marc/Steven meet the other superheroes, but I don't think that is out of the question.

Disney apparently intends to submit Moon Knight as a limited series. According to the Emmy rules, “The program must tell a complete, non-recurring story, and not have an ongoing storyline or main characters in subsequent seasons." Based on the pre-credits material, I would have thought it met that criteria as a one-off. But the mid-credits scene heavily implies that the story isn't finished. The limited series designation would still apply if Disney opts to move Oscar Isaac over to the theatrical feature side instead of doing another season of the television show.

How a Marvel Tweet Could Complicate ‘Moon Knight’ and Oscar Isaac’s Emmys Odds

Following a tweet from Marvel's account, "Moon Knight" and Oscar Isaac could face a battle submitting for best limited series.

variety.com

That being said, aren’t most movies 90-120 minutes and contain a full first, second and third act? Characters and storylines are introduced, events transpire, things are resolved, all within a relatively short amount of screen time compared to TV series. Can’t pretty much any story be concluded in about 45 minutes once all of the groundwork of the first and second acts has been established?

Yes, but a good movie Is designed with an appropriate amount of plot to be resolved within its running time. The show built up a lot more to have to resolve than a movie would have been able to fit.

For me, I think it's more along the lines of how does the pacing of the final episode fit with the rest of the series, even if it wraps things up?

I didn't hate the finale, but I did think that it was kind of jarring in the amount of non-stop action. The preceding episodes seemed much more interested in the character work, which is great. This episode swung very far in the opposite direction. The action wasn't bad, but it did feel incongruous with last week's episode in particular.

Spoiler

There is also no indication of what Layla is going to do after the battle, or what her relationship will be with Marc and Steven going forward. We see that Marc and Steven return to Steven's apartment and seem to be happily coexisting with each other for the first time, but without any mention of her. Especially because she is Marc's wife, that seems like a pretty big dangling thread.

On another note: Because Jake (!) appears to kill Harrow in the tag scene, I assume Ethan Hawke is done and won't return whenever we see Marc/Steven/Jake again. I would have liked to see more of the two of them together, which wasn't really how the show was structured. But it might also be that Ethan Hawke signed on because he could come in for a single season and not make a long-term contractual commitment. That seems to be an advantage of these Disney+ shows in getting actors to sign up because it's not the same duration as the long-term Marvel movie contracts that the Avengers or Guardians have to sign.

 

[Walter Kittel]

I didn't hate the finale, but I did think that it was kind of jarring in the amount of non-stop action. The preceding episodes seemed much more interested in the character work, which is great. This episode swung very far in the opposite direction. The action wasn't bad, but it did feel incongruous with last week's episode in particular.

I felt exactly the same way about episode six. It did a pretty good job of wrapping up season one, but tonally it was a significant shift from the emotionally invested episode five. I won't elaborate on the Spoilerized section of Jake's post (# 172) but those are valid points and it does make me wonder if there will be a second season and how it will unfold.

Spoiler

It feels like there was a continuity error with the segments dealing with Ammit's judgement / condemnation. In episode five while Steven and Marc are on the sand yacht, we see the souls entering the sand causing Taweret some amount of distress. In episode six it appears that this starts later in timeline of the show. Now time may operate differently in the underworld complicating this comparison. Or maybe I'm just screwed up.

Overall, I preferred the more emotionally driven aspects of the series but I don't regret watching the show and will happily revisit the series at some point.

- Walter.

 

[Jake Lipson]

Spoiler

In episode five while Steven and Marc are on the sand yacht, we see the souls entering the sand causing Taweret some amount of distress. In episode six it appears that this starts later in timeline of the show.

Spoiler

This doesn't seem to be an issue to me. It seemed clear to me that Harrow was causing havoc while Marc and Steven were in the afterlife. We saw at the beginning of this episode what he was doing last week while we were focusing on Marc and Steven. We also saw the other side of Taweret contacting Layla, per Marc and Steven's request last week. They just chose to show us this stuff in this episode so that we could sit with Marc and Steven during episode #5 instead of going back and froth between the plot lines.

Overall, I preferred the more emotionally driven aspects of the series but I don't regret watching the show and will happily revisit the series at some point.

I think it comes down to an expectation that a Marvel thing will end with a big hero-versus-villain battle. WandaVision had the same issue last year. It started as a very unique and different show focusing on Wanda's grief. Yet its finale still ended with Wanda and Agatha shooting CGI spells everywhere. If Marvel has to have an action climax every time, at least this was a good one, and the character development prior to it helped establish the emotional stakes for the inevitable big fight. Nor am I saying that the idea of an action series with Moon Knight is necessarily a bad one. It just felt like the ratio of action vs. character moments in this episode was calibrated differently than the episodes prior to it.

 

[Jeff Cooper]

I think it comes down to an expectation that a Marvel thing will end with a big hero-versus-villain battle.

Loki did very well at avoiding this, but IIRC, didn't it get a lot of flack for doing exactly that? Seems like a lose/lose situation.

 

[Jake Lipson]

Loki did very well at avoiding this, but IIRC, didn't it get a lot of flack for doing exactly that?

Loki was a bit of a different situation because the purpose of the finale was to set up the opening of the multiverse and to introduce Kang. That show, much more specifically than the others, went with a finale that was intended more to set up other projects than to complete the story of its individual season. Also, of course, it straight out told us that there will be a season two. And it was known in advance that Jonathan Majors will be the villain of Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantmania.

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

I have loved this series so much through it's run.
As the credits rolled I was left with a huge sense of disappointment.
The after credits scene did do a lot to alleviate that, but I will say that I fully agree with everyone who was worried that 1 episode could not possibly wrap up everything without being extremely rushed.

We did get way more of a conclusion than I expected to after last week's episode, but after five fascinating weeks of build-up it was disappointing that everything came down to the good guys and the bad guys whacking each other.

Disney apparently intends to submit Moon Knight as a limited series. According to the Emmy rules, “The program must tell a complete, non-recurring story, and not have an ongoing storyline or main characters in subsequent seasons." Based on the pre-credits material, I would have thought it met that criteria as a one-off. But the mid-credits scene heavily implies that the story isn't finished. The limited series designation would still apply if Disney opts to move Oscar Isaac over to the theatrical feature side instead of doing another season of the television show.

The limited series designation is just a point in time thing anyway. "The Alienist", "Big Little Lies", "Treme", "Luther", "Top of the Lake", and "Downton Abbey" were all nominated as Limited Series for their first seasons, and then ended up coming back for subsequent seasons.

Yes, but a good movie Is designed with an appropriate amount of plot to be resolved within its running time. The show built up a lot more to have to resolve than a movie would have been able to fit.

I think that's a key part of my vague dissatisfaction with this last episode. The superhero genre has sort of trained audiences to expect a huge action sequence at the climax, and while I've started to become bored of that with the feature films, the structure of them sort of builds and builds toward that. "WandaVision", "Falcon and the Winter Soldier", and now "Moon Knight" spent a lot more time laying the groundwork, and then all of the complexity and nuance seems to fall away for fight scenes.

The action wasn't bad, but it did feel incongruous with last week's episode in particular.

Exactly.

There is also no indication of what Layla is going to do after the battle, or what her relationship will be with Marc and Steven going forward. We see that Marc and Steven return to Steven's apartment and seem to be happily coexisting with each other for the first time, but without any mention of her. Especially because she is Marc's wife, that seems like a pretty big dangling thread.

100 percent. I really enjoyed her superheroic turn, as the avatar for Taweret, with the costume that was almost reminiscent of Cleopatra. But before Marc/Steven died, she'd just found out that Marc was complicit in her father's murder, even if he didn't pull the trigger. I get setting that aside to deal with the immediate threat of Ammit, but once that threat had been addressed, you'd think there would be a pretty serious discussion.

On another note: Because Jake (!) appears to kill Harrow in the tag scene, I assume Ethan Hawke is done and won't return whenever we see Marc/Steven/Jake again. I would have liked to see more of the two of them together, which wasn't really how the show was structured. But it might also be that Ethan Hawke signed on because he could come in for a single season and not make a long-term contractual commitment. That seems to be an advantage of these Disney+ shows in getting actors to sign up because it's not the same duration as the long-term Marvel movie contracts that the Avengers or Guardians have to sign.

It's also the fact that there didn't seem to be much else left to explore. Ammit's agenda hadn't changed for thousands of years, and Harrow's only agenda was to help Ammit enact her agenda.

And leaving Harrow/Ammit alive to escape and cause havoc again is the kind of thing Superman and Batman get criticized for with their villains. Marc not killing Harrow/Ammit was a moment of growth for him, but Khonshu's sense of justice has always been pretty absolute, and Harrow and Ammit both have a ton of blood on their hands.

It feels like there was a continuity error with the segments dealing with Ammit's judgement / condemnation. In episode five while Steven and Marc are on the sand yacht, we see the souls entering the sand causing Taweret some amount of distress. In episode six it appears that this starts later in timeline of the show. Now time may operate differently in the underworld complicating this comparison. Or maybe I'm just screwed up.

I think it's a combination of things. This episode picks up directly where episode four left off, with Marc/Steven having just died. So the events of episode five played out over the first section of this episode. The souls that so concerned Taweret might have been all of the Egyptian soldiers at the checkpoint on the way back to Cairo. Or they might have been a premonition of the mass judgment coming once Ammit got freed.

Loki did very well at avoiding this, but IIRC, didn't it get a lot of flack for doing exactly that? Seems like a lose/lose situation.

I don't think the issue with "Loki" is necessarily that it didn't end on a massive action setpiece, but rather that two things:

1. It was just three characters in a room, with one character expelling massive amounts of exposition. The whole season was asking a question, so it makes sense that the finale would be centered around the answer. But there had to be a better way of showing it rather than telling it.
2. The other Marvel Studios shows, whatever their faults, told a complete story with a beginning middle and end. "Loki" broke everything and then left us hanging. It makes a certain amount of sense, given that they knew they'd have a second season. But it's inherently less satisfying than a complete story.

 

[NeilO]

Just finished the finale and I am quite satisfied. I had been wondering when we would meet the third aspect of Marc's life and I am glad that did come out.

As far as the question about Layla. They could have added another couple of minutes showing that, but I don't think it would have flowed as well at the end. They can leave that for another series. Her turn as as the avatar for Taweret was great.

As far the comment that

it was disappointing that everything came down to the good guys and the bad guys whacking each other.

Not completely. There was a lot of that, but it came down to two gods teaming up for the greater good and using their avatars to bind Ammit. And if it wasn't for the surprise 3rd personality then all would have been lost. There was lot more going on that just the battle.

 

[Jake Lipson]

The limited series designation is just a point in time thing anyway. "The Alienist", "Big Little Lies", "Treme", "Luther", "Top of the Lake", and "Downton Abbey" were all nominated as Limited Series for their first seasons, and then ended up coming back for subsequent seasons.

Yes and no. You're right that things change and that the examples you cited retroactively became continuing series after their wins. But as the Variety article I linked to mentioned, the Television Academy has been trying to tighten the language around limited series to prevent that from happening again. If Disney intends for Moon Knight to continue, it should be placed in the Best Drama category. I think (although don't remember where I read this) the Television Academy also has the right to reject Disney's submission if they see fit.

It's also the fact that there didn't seem to be much else left to explore. Ammit's agenda hadn't changed for thousands of years, and Harrow's only agenda was to help Ammit enact her agenda.

Right. I don't have a problem with Harrow's story ending here. I think it was handled really well throughout the series. Ethan Hawke was great in the role. I am a big fan of Hawke, so I felt mixed emotions at the end. Harrow's ending was the right move for the story. I'm only sad to see him go because I like Hawke so much as an actor. Still, if Hawke was going to join the MCU on a limited basis, this was terrific role for him and he made the most of it.

 

[Sam Favate]

I enjoyed the finale a lot. Great action, great visuals, and a satisfying end to a complex story.

Just saw an interview with Oscar Issac who said he has no idea of plans for another season but said he’d be up for it if the story was right.

Marvel did call this a season finale, not a series. If there is a second season, it’s going to be a while.

PS I hope there is!